As of this weekend my schedule will change and I will be restricted to writing at the most once a week - I will try to keep up with once a week though (Fridays).
I have been reading Animals in Translation by Temple Grandin and am feeling enlightened at just about every turn of the page. Something specific jumped out at me though as it pertains to interacting with prey animals and specifically horses the way another prey animal or horse would. A common criticism of Parelli Natural Horsemanship that I hear is that horses do not think we are horses so it is not necessary (and is even silly, ineffective, and dangerous) to interact with them in such a manner. Well of course they do not regard us as horses - they judge what we are and our behaviour based on our smell, the body language we exhibit, and many other signals and factors (many of which we often are not even aware of or do not consider). However this does not negate the importance of speaking to the horse in a manner it genetically understands. The following is an excerpt from the book (bolded parts mine):
Working with the Animal's Nature: Farm Animals (p. 169)
A human owner has the responsibility to understand and respect his pet's nature. Dogs and cats are predator animals. Dogs are hyper-social animals who live in dominance hierarchies. If you interfere with the hierarchy you can get the low-ranking do or dogs killed by their own pack mates. You have to work with an animal's emotional makeup, not against it.
Domestic animals such as pigs, cattle, and horses are less controlled by purely social stimuli than dogs, so with these animals it's especially important to exert dominance the way another animal would do it. I learned this lesson when I was raising piglets as part of my Ph.D. work in animal behaviour. My piglets lived in a Disneyland of straw with lots of different objects to root and tear up. I would sit with my piglets for hours and watch their behaviour.
The one I named Mellow Pig would instantly roll over when her belly was scratched and would actively solicit people to rub her belly. But the largest pig in the pen did not like being petted at all, and she was the dominant boss hog. She thought she owned the place. Her coloration was what an Illinois farmer calls blue butt; she had white forequarters and a grayish blue-gray rear. I named her Big Gilt.
When Big Gilt reached a hundred pounds, she started biting me whenever I entered the pen. The other pigs sought petting and stroking but Big Gilt disdained it. She just wanted to be boss. The bigger she got the worse the biting got and I had to stop it.
I tried waving my arms at her and shouting, but it didn't help. In desperation once I even tried slapping her big blue butt. That did no good, either. Finally I figured out that I had to act like a pig. I needed to assert my superior dominance by biting and pushing against the side of her neck the same way another, bigger pig would.
So, to simulate another pig biting and shoving against Big Gilt's neck I used a short piece of one-by-four-inch board, about eighteen inches long, to poke and shove her against the fence. That's what the winner pig does: the winner pushes the loser away, or up against a wall. I shoved the end of the board repeatedly against her thick neck and made it very clear that I was stronger, which I was. A full-grown human can still push around a hundred-pound hog. I didn't hurt her, but I did dominate her.
It worked like magic. Big Gilt stopped biting me and I was now Boss Hog. Using the hardwired instinctual behaviour pattern was much more effective than slapping her. The only problem with this method is that it has to be done when the animal is young enough so you can still easily push the pig away. Again, I want to emphasize that I did not beat her up. She was overpowered by a stronger being who applied pressure to the right spot. Pushing the board against her neck turned on a hardwired instinctual submissive behaviour.
After that Big Gilt was now polite when I entered the pen and she never bit me again, but she still did not like petting. One day while I was stroking Mellow Pig on the belly I started to rub Big Gilt on the belly, too. Since I was not the boss she didn't run away, but she clearly didn't like it. The strangest thing happened. Hardwired instinct collided with clear conscious will. Rubbing her belly triggered the instinctual rolling over behaviour, but only the rear end of Big Gilt rolled over. Her front end remained standing when her hind end collapsed. The whole time I was stroking her a horrid growling sound came out of her throat. I had turned on the pleasure response to a belly rub, but the other end of Big Gilt did not want to give in. She did not dare bit me and she did not try to run away, but she surely did not like it.
This may be applied to horses in that it is most effective - almost crucial - to work with the horse in such a way that he understands, in his language so to speak. In a manner that reflects his emotional genetic makeup. When you watch horses in the herd, they exert dominance by moving the submissive horse's feet. They also use increasing pressure, escalating phases of pressure or "ask". This is why techniques that play into this makeup - roundpenning, driving a horse's front and hind ends, directing a horse's feet - are effective. When you consistently establish yourself as the dominant leader, you invite respect and a horse who will follow your leadership without question. Otherwise, the horse will exert dominance over you - someone has to be leader. This should not involve force - it is easy to move a horse's feet using body language. This body language can be clarified to the horse via extensions such as whips or what that extend a person's arm and make their intentions clear. If a person starts with very light, minor phases and escalates to increasing phases of pressure, the horse is permitted to be light, soft, and responsive, but the person is effective as is necessary to solicit a response. Same as in a herd. When laid back ears and a swishing tail are ignored, someone is being chased and possibly bit or kicked. Rhythm to one's pressure is also very important too as rhythm is soothing to the prey animal.
Slapping a horse for "misbehaving" or using positive reinforcement (ie, clicker training) only as primary techniques are not nearly as effective and often ignore the horse's genetic makeup. In my experience, methods that include a variety of types of reinforcement (such as PNH does) and that very thoroughly and directly address the horse's natural tendencies and makeup is much more effective in training. Furthermore, such creates a healthy, balanced and happy horse who understands its role and what is expected of him. Negative reinforcement, positive reinforcement, counter-conditioning, etc all have their benefits when combined to address the horse's root nature. If you use techniques that are based primarily on pushing the horse when he is "bad" and rewarding when he is "good" (both arbitrary terms) and that neglect the horse's natural instincts, perhaps it is time to consider other methods that might be more effective when applied correctly. One cannot find true success in ignoring an animal's nature; just as different people communicate best in different manners, so do animals and even horses (which is where it is also very beneficial and even important to understand a horse's 'horsenality').
Showing posts with label Parelli. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Parelli. Show all posts
Friday, April 13, 2012
Monday, March 15, 2010
Wonder Rider
This time the FSOTD blog post was in regards to a girl who can (gasp!) ride!! Yeah. It sort of inadvertently happens when you are around horses a long time and have ridden a lot, Cathy. You sorta learn to ride along the way. I will refrain from remarking on Cathy's own riding habits despite alleged years in the saddle, but honestly!!! What the girl is doing is certainly nothing special, for a young lithe rider who has spent years in the saddle. Check out the video Breathe.
Such riding should not usually be necessary however - for the most part. The 8yo Paint I trained last year had bucked off his owner as a 4yo and had not been ridden since. When I first worked with him on the ground it was obvious, just as with the first horse in the video Breathe, that he was going to buck if I got on him (exact same displays of behaviour). He was fearful, reactive, and dangerous (and studly, to boot!). When I did saddle him my first week with him, he immediately humped up and acted like he was about to explode. And the first time or two I worked with him on the ground with a saddle on his back, he did explode, in much the same way as that first bay in the video. SO I DID NOT GET ON. I worked with him on the ground, had a few tense moments here and there in the saddle later, and eventually (over 60 days) produced a horse who was henceforth ridden on a daily basis by his owners on their ranch. One of our Thoroughbreds (my main guy, Link), whom I acquired late 2008, was extremely explosive under-saddle when I first got him. So much so, that I quit riding him for several months until I could sort out his myriad of issues on the ground first. He would just explode under-saddle (and on the ground, of course) and there was absolutely no stopping him. Now however, he is going great and is currently working towards showing Training Level dressage this year. We worked from the ground up though and thus I never had to invite his head nailing my nose into my brain, because by the time we got to the saddle work, he was ready for it.
I am not saying this girl is wrong in getting on (to each their own and she is not abusing the horses, plus we only see short clips of her actual time with each horse so cannot propose to know the full story), but the method she is using really does invite possible injury and it does escalate the situation, which can result in a terrible experience for the horse and/or a horse/rider injury or even death. Just for me personally, it is not worth it. I can and will ride through a buck or two, or even more if necessary (and my main Thoroughbred does have panic attacks every so often still yet that I usually ride through), however if the horse is going to full-blown explode such as did some of the horses in the video, and (seemingly) often - I can and will work it out on the ground first, because it works and is safer. The bay horse at the beginning of the video is clearly upset, reactive, dangerous, and not focusing on the individual longeing. Safe to mount? Nope. If he is not paying attention to the person on the ground, there is no way in hell he is going to pay attention to a person on his back. Work with the horse until they are safe, relaxed, and focused on the ground, then mount up. I know many proclaim it impossible to work through an under-saddle problem with a horse without riding it, but that simply just is not true. The reasons for problems under-saddle: tension, fear, disrespect, are all root causes that can be resolved on the ground. The loose, supple, relaxed, trusting, respectful, happy horse is going to remain so under-saddle (to an extent).
I just kept thinking throughout watching the video: sure the young woman has a nice velcro seat, but she is on the horses' mouths quite a bit (though she is actually decent in that respect, and I do not blame her with the bolter in that particular scenario), is using spurs (such as with the grey Arabian) to push already fearful and reactive horses forward (which carries the high risk of increasing the horse's fear response because you are increasing the pressure), is seemingly always carrying a whip (which she uses for punishment, though granted it is simply a dressage whip and she only taps lightly)...and man, that's just a lot of horses that buck under her!!!! Why do they all want her off? I love the challenge and associated rewards of working with the tough problem horses too, but they don't all buck by the time we progress to under-saddle work! In fact when they do, I know I have pushed them too much (which sometimes is necessary with a horse in training, unfortunately, just due to the logistics of time constraints, but not to that extent). There is the bay at the dressage show - if he was such a problem horse (who nearly flipped over backwards), what is he doing at a show? Was he really ready yet? Is that correct training and riding to be applauded? Or is it a mistake on her (the trainer's) part, or even ill training? Granted it is rather difficult to judge from my seat at my desk.
The 'after' clips do show improved horses and so I have to applaud that. I personally don't like every detail (some of the nosebands, tense tails/backs, riders' loud legs, possible hand-dominated headsets [??], etc), however I am being a bit picky because the overall picture is one where the horse is obviously much happier and more compliant than initially. Also, I appreciate this girl's philosophies. Like I said, overall she is creating useful horses out of former problem horses and is trying to educate people along the way, so I am not trying to sound overly down on her (sorry!). Her methods simply differ from my own and those I admire, and that is ok because she appears to still be doing good by the horses (which I respect, because it is what is ultimately what is important). I just thought Cathy could have featured something even better I guess; the rider in question is a good rider, but not beyond what I would expect of someone experienced with horses and who is training problem horses is all. Furthermore, I do not think that what she (the rider, that is) is doing on those horses (as an experienced rider who knows how to get out of sticky situations and how far to/not to push a horse) is recommended for the average rider, as Cathy obviously believes (heck, Cathy tells beginners to take note in her blog!). Cathy also points this out as being better than what Linda Parelli was doing - how so if they ultimately produce the same (and in my opinion, Linda's methods can produce better, but that's just my biased opinion)? I can personally attest to the Parelli method turning out horses with similar and better behaviours of the 'after' vids of the horses in question in the video, because I have done so myself, using Parelli methods (including on horses formerly deemed 'untrainable' who later turned out to be fantastic dressage/jumping/youth prospects) - and often without the 'chaos' in between. And this LACK of pissy behaviours Cathy speaks of? The horses were definitely going much better in the 'after' vids, however I did see some pissy behaviours afterward.
Here is an excellent 'after' for a problem-horse. Gaston is a former stud and was quite dangerous at one time. Parelli Natural Horsemanship, btw.
Here is a video of another problem horse, Quincy, trained by Jonathan Field (the instructor I initially learned Parelli from):
I can assure you none of the above riders used spurs or whips and they did not 'ride out the buck' (etc). Also, they have successfully dealt with many a problem horse since! What they do, I would (and do) definitely recommend to beginners.
Such riding should not usually be necessary however - for the most part. The 8yo Paint I trained last year had bucked off his owner as a 4yo and had not been ridden since. When I first worked with him on the ground it was obvious, just as with the first horse in the video Breathe, that he was going to buck if I got on him (exact same displays of behaviour). He was fearful, reactive, and dangerous (and studly, to boot!). When I did saddle him my first week with him, he immediately humped up and acted like he was about to explode. And the first time or two I worked with him on the ground with a saddle on his back, he did explode, in much the same way as that first bay in the video. SO I DID NOT GET ON. I worked with him on the ground, had a few tense moments here and there in the saddle later, and eventually (over 60 days) produced a horse who was henceforth ridden on a daily basis by his owners on their ranch. One of our Thoroughbreds (my main guy, Link), whom I acquired late 2008, was extremely explosive under-saddle when I first got him. So much so, that I quit riding him for several months until I could sort out his myriad of issues on the ground first. He would just explode under-saddle (and on the ground, of course) and there was absolutely no stopping him. Now however, he is going great and is currently working towards showing Training Level dressage this year. We worked from the ground up though and thus I never had to invite his head nailing my nose into my brain, because by the time we got to the saddle work, he was ready for it.
I am not saying this girl is wrong in getting on (to each their own and she is not abusing the horses, plus we only see short clips of her actual time with each horse so cannot propose to know the full story), but the method she is using really does invite possible injury and it does escalate the situation, which can result in a terrible experience for the horse and/or a horse/rider injury or even death. Just for me personally, it is not worth it. I can and will ride through a buck or two, or even more if necessary (and my main Thoroughbred does have panic attacks every so often still yet that I usually ride through), however if the horse is going to full-blown explode such as did some of the horses in the video, and (seemingly) often - I can and will work it out on the ground first, because it works and is safer. The bay horse at the beginning of the video is clearly upset, reactive, dangerous, and not focusing on the individual longeing. Safe to mount? Nope. If he is not paying attention to the person on the ground, there is no way in hell he is going to pay attention to a person on his back. Work with the horse until they are safe, relaxed, and focused on the ground, then mount up. I know many proclaim it impossible to work through an under-saddle problem with a horse without riding it, but that simply just is not true. The reasons for problems under-saddle: tension, fear, disrespect, are all root causes that can be resolved on the ground. The loose, supple, relaxed, trusting, respectful, happy horse is going to remain so under-saddle (to an extent).
I just kept thinking throughout watching the video: sure the young woman has a nice velcro seat, but she is on the horses' mouths quite a bit (though she is actually decent in that respect, and I do not blame her with the bolter in that particular scenario), is using spurs (such as with the grey Arabian) to push already fearful and reactive horses forward (which carries the high risk of increasing the horse's fear response because you are increasing the pressure), is seemingly always carrying a whip (which she uses for punishment, though granted it is simply a dressage whip and she only taps lightly)...and man, that's just a lot of horses that buck under her!!!! Why do they all want her off? I love the challenge and associated rewards of working with the tough problem horses too, but they don't all buck by the time we progress to under-saddle work! In fact when they do, I know I have pushed them too much (which sometimes is necessary with a horse in training, unfortunately, just due to the logistics of time constraints, but not to that extent). There is the bay at the dressage show - if he was such a problem horse (who nearly flipped over backwards), what is he doing at a show? Was he really ready yet? Is that correct training and riding to be applauded? Or is it a mistake on her (the trainer's) part, or even ill training? Granted it is rather difficult to judge from my seat at my desk.
The 'after' clips do show improved horses and so I have to applaud that. I personally don't like every detail (some of the nosebands, tense tails/backs, riders' loud legs, possible hand-dominated headsets [??], etc), however I am being a bit picky because the overall picture is one where the horse is obviously much happier and more compliant than initially. Also, I appreciate this girl's philosophies. Like I said, overall she is creating useful horses out of former problem horses and is trying to educate people along the way, so I am not trying to sound overly down on her (sorry!). Her methods simply differ from my own and those I admire, and that is ok because she appears to still be doing good by the horses (which I respect, because it is what is ultimately what is important). I just thought Cathy could have featured something even better I guess; the rider in question is a good rider, but not beyond what I would expect of someone experienced with horses and who is training problem horses is all. Furthermore, I do not think that what she (the rider, that is) is doing on those horses (as an experienced rider who knows how to get out of sticky situations and how far to/not to push a horse) is recommended for the average rider, as Cathy obviously believes (heck, Cathy tells beginners to take note in her blog!). Cathy also points this out as being better than what Linda Parelli was doing - how so if they ultimately produce the same (and in my opinion, Linda's methods can produce better, but that's just my biased opinion)? I can personally attest to the Parelli method turning out horses with similar and better behaviours of the 'after' vids of the horses in question in the video, because I have done so myself, using Parelli methods (including on horses formerly deemed 'untrainable' who later turned out to be fantastic dressage/jumping/youth prospects) - and often without the 'chaos' in between. And this LACK of pissy behaviours Cathy speaks of? The horses were definitely going much better in the 'after' vids, however I did see some pissy behaviours afterward.
Here is an excellent 'after' for a problem-horse. Gaston is a former stud and was quite dangerous at one time. Parelli Natural Horsemanship, btw.
Here is a video of another problem horse, Quincy, trained by Jonathan Field (the instructor I initially learned Parelli from):
I can assure you none of the above riders used spurs or whips and they did not 'ride out the buck' (etc). Also, they have successfully dealt with many a problem horse since! What they do, I would (and do) definitely recommend to beginners.
Saturday, March 13, 2010
Fugly Shit of the Day: Part II
I just recently quickly perused the comment section of Cathy's post I blogged about the other day concerning Linda Parelli - most was just repetitive BS and whining, and no, I did not read all 550+ comments (I do not wish to garbage quite that much time), however I did pay particular attention to Cathy's comments. See, I was never aware of Cathy's existence until maybe a year ago or so when one of her little sheep snarked at me on a forum and quoted Cathy - if Cathy said it, it must be right!! Since then, I admit I have not really devoted a whole lot of time 'researching' Cathy or her past, so I wanted to read her some of her recent comments to gauge what she really knows about horses. The following are my recent findings and a follow-up of Fugly Shit of the Day. I just think people should realize how little she actually knows in terms of horses so they may make an informed decision. Here are a few of Cathy's comments:
(the first part of the following is Fugly quoting a previous poster)
fugly says: March 10, 2010 at 8:33 pm
"“My gelding spent the first 6 months or so I had him spooking into me and he knocked me over 3 times. The third time (last June) I finally got my nerve up and convinced him I was going to kill him (which consisted of backing him up and screaming at him). You know what? He has spooked in place or away from me since that day.”
Amazing how that works, isn’t it? Someone realized YOU were more scary than the silly thing he was spooking at.
Congratulations. You understand horses better than Linda Parelli, already!"
Honestly? Our solution to a fearful horse spooking is to make it more scared of you and your reaction to its fear, than of the object it is afraid of? To quote John Lyons:
"It's unreasonable to ask a horse not to be afraid. That's like my telling you to go into a bad area of town for a walk at two in the morning, and not be frightened."
So if it is unreasonable to ask a horse to not be afraid, by extension, is it not unreasonable to reprimand a horse for being afraid? Why would you want a relationship in which your horse is afraid of being afraid, because it is afraid of your reaction? A horse cannot help being afraid and some horses are more prone to being alert and reactive than others - some require stronger leadership and stronger trust in their rider to follow said leadership without spooking. The solution is simple: gain your horse's trust (not just in you, but in your leadership), guarantee to your horse that you have it's back, and it will follow you wherever you ask. Do you honestly want a horse who is tense and anxious because it is afraid of you? Excuse me while I vomit. I have seen and ridden those horses, and they are an emotional mess because they're constantly trying to read and anticipate you, because they are afraid of your reaction and of doing something wrong. Horses are not spooking at 'silly things' for the fun of it, they are acting like prey animals. They have very different worries than us and they have very different perceptions, thinking, and even vision, than us. Our job is to teach them to think and to follow our leadership, to act less reactive and more relaxed. Not to scare them into submissiveness.
Cathy, for someone who purports to know so much about horse training and horse behaviour, I am ashamed for you and am dismayed at your lack of actual knowledge. I suppose I should not be overly surprised, when your 'training' looks like this though:
That was no 'surprise jump', any idiot could see that was minutes away from happening, simply by watching the first 5 seconds of the video where the horse was observed to be frantic, anxious, and tense. She was looking for an escape route, and found it. Want to know why Pat and other NH trainers have such low-fenced roundpens? So they remember to never push a horse past its threshold, to encourage themselves to create draw and relaxation in the horse. This was not a wild horse, Cathy, this is a poor QH filly that was pushed too far.
I see Cathy removed the video of her unable to effectively get even a green filly trotting under-saddle. It's not for no reason that she is unable to train the supposedly very quiet VLC stallion of hers. I just wish she would then admit her limitations (because that's ok! we all have them!!) and quit criticizing everyone else and methods she obviously does not understand nor know anything about. Cathy, if you do not know enough about training to train your own docile animals, please refrain from 'educating' the public in regards to how to train. That's all - I'm not asking for much!!!!
Here are some more goodies (*sigh*):
fugly says: March 10, 2010 at 8:31 pm
"I have sung on young OTTB’s to distract them from spooky stuff, particularly during the first rides out in the open. But an Appy is just going to laugh at you and walk your knee into the nearest tree.
And I am a huge devotee of the old fashioned butt rope for recalcitrant trailer-loaders. I’ll be damned if I’m going to screw around for 45 minutes when all it takes is 2 people and a butt rope and the horse is in the trailer in 30 seconds flat."
I just for once want to see Cathy do that to my Thoroughbred Link. When we first purchased him he wasn't the greatest loader and had you just put a butt rope on him and tried to shove him in (btdt - the barn owner bullied his way into doing so), he would have balked HUGE. He not only panicked and flew backwards, fighting, but he also double-barrel kicked at any people behind him. Now, of course, he loads fine, but the point is not to simply shove the horse in in 30s and slam the door shut! The point is for the horse to be comfortable enough with your leadership and have sufficient respect in you to do as you ask, and for the horse to be relaxed in the trailer and want to go in there. Otherwise you get the horse in there by force and have to deal with something throwing a wreck in there. I realise there are exceptions where you just have to get the horse in or there seem to be no other options in very rare cases - but those cases are not hugely common; most of the time you can work with a horse beforehand until they are comfortable loading. However with a horse who is usually ok with loading and whom I have worked with before (though obviously not enough, if he is balking at the trailer), I am going to take that 45min instead of 30s. 1,200lbs is a lot of weight and is not always physically possible to shove in in 30s anyways, not without risk to the horse. Why is Cathy's answer always force and fear?? I am asking honestly.
fugly says: March 9, 2010 at 6:39 pm
"Then the first thing I would have picked up is a longe whip…before I took the lead.
I’ve dealt with chargers. They are not hard to fix. Once or twice, bam, and they realize that on top of you is not a good place to be. You have to watch them like a hawk, because some will wait for a moment of inattention and then take another dive at you. But all in all, I could have fixed this with one or two good whacks with a whip – at the CHEST as he dove at me – NEVER at the face – and the horse would not have been confused, and it would have been over a lot faster.
This is a good example of “picking at” a horse. Instead of making a simple point, once, and making it clear what behavior was not acceptable, it’s a thousand annoying little pinpricks to the horse."
Honestly, I actually was thinking a carrot stick (or similar) would have perhaps helped Linda communicate better with the horse in question as well. However, what she did worked, and I cannot say for certain that a stick would have been more effective anyway. This horse was not a 'charger' per se, he was not doing what he did out of aggressiveness, he was simply bowling over humans in disregard, because he had other concerns on his mind and had very little respect for his handlers. I think what Linda did was much better than hitting the horse in punishment, because judging from the state the horse was in as Linda worked with it, it would have had to have been some pretty hard hits!! What Linda did took a little longer, however it was effective in earning the horse's respect and it was a long-term solution by engaging the horse's mind (she'd never have to hit the horse, as Cathy advises, or work so hard again). I actually did not see Linda hit the horse directly in zone 1 (the nose area), which is a very sensitive area - had she hit the horse there, it probably would have caused an adverse reaction. Instead, she smacked the horse loudly on the sturdy jaw and on the neck (most people I see pat their horses as hard, or harder, than Linda did! In praise!), to get its attention. You don't see the horse panic, jerk its head suddenly, or act fearful towards Linda or headshy afterwards. So obviously she did not traumatize the animal. In addition, she was not 'picking at', or 'nagging', the horse, she was correcting him whenever he made a wrong move (which, at first, was often). You certainly never see an annoyed horse, and you see a very responsive and respectful horse at the end of the session.
fugly says: March 10, 2010 at 1:32 pm
"I agree – there’s nothing NEW about it. 30 years ago, we knew we had to be the alpha or we were gonna have hoofy-prints on our backs.
It’s all marketing, packaging and unfortunately, it’s laced with a seriously deep thread of bullshit.
What it comes down to for me is this: There was absolutely nothing wrong with traditional horsemanship and traditional training. It did not need to be fixed or improved upon. Were there some jerks that needed to stop training? Sure. They still exist. Only now some of them use Natural Horsemanship, as can be seen in this video.
My main problem with NH is this: It has a culture which discourages people from improving their riding skills. You hardly ever (yes, I know, a few people do it – Chris Cox, I think) hear a NH’er say “ma’am, the horse is fine – you need to improve your seat and develop a stronger leg.” Instead, they tell you that playing this game or that game will develop some kind of magical “bond” with your horse. Do you know what an actual bond comes from? RESPECT. Horses, much like women, walk all over you if they perceive you to be a wimp. They do not love you for it. They may love carrots but they don’t go “wow, this person is so nice to me, I won’t run back to the barn with her any more!” That’s just not how the equine mind works and selling that idea is misleading tomfoolery. Your horse needs to think “wow, I’d like to go back to the barn but I know I can’t, ’cause the last time I tried I just got hauled in a circle and made to chase my tail and really, it wasn’t much fun and I didn’t wind up back at the barn any sooner.” And you can’t BE that confident rider who simply pulls the barn sour horse in a circle and sends it on in the direction YOU want to go unless you’re a good, solid competent rider.
Which takes lessons…and work without stirrups…and that hurts…and makes you sweat…and boy, you have to get off the couch and away from the DVD player and maybe, gasp, get a bit more fit to do it.
Lots of people aren’t interested in buying the truth!"
Pat does not claim to have created something new and gives full credit to his teachers, equine and human alike, both at his conferences and in his books. He also says himself that what he teaches is nothing new (and lists off where and how the methods he teach have been used in the past). Plain and simple. He knows what he is doing is not new, but he knows it is not mainstream (and it isn't, I had heard of Dorrance, Hunt, etc prior to Parelli, however I had never actually seen their techniques nor did anyone in my areas ever use them; I had no idea what they were about). Many people I encounter still know nothing about NH (and similar) techniques; probably a good 90 percent of the riders at any of the barns I have boarded at use very traditional techniques - techniques that are usually as bad as and worse than those Cathy advocates for (though I am going to say that some of the techniques are soft and gentle, yet assertive - ones that I greatly admire and respect). You are right, Cathy, that Parelli is perhaps over-marketed, however that does not take away from the method itself. No, one cannot learns solely from DVD's, however they can still learn from them! DVD's and books can lead to experimentation, correction, adaptation, and learning in one's methods and personally, I see nothing wrong with that. Pat and Linda are not advocating that individuals replace hands-on learning and instruction with DVD's, they are simply presenting a method that includes materials to help the rider. While you (Cathy) might feel that there is no reason to ever improve one's method, I stand by Pat's philosophy: "Good, better, best, never let it rest." Strive to be better and constantly improve yourself and your relationship(s) with your horse(s) - and constantly improve your horses! Furthermore, if Cathy honestly knew anything about Parelli, she would realize they do in fact focus on the rider. In fact, it's all about the rider - there are no problem horses, only problem riders. Which is why they do not focus on the horse, but rather upon teaching the human, which includes proper equitation, among other important skills. Lastly, respect is paramount in PNH - the idea is to create a partnership that balances trust and respect and that is based on love, language and leadership...in equal doses. Pat and Linda recognize that one cannot have a partnership that does not include respect and have developed a program that revolves around earning both trust and respect (just take a look at the 7 games!). Even the carrot stick obtained its name for that reason: it is not supposed to be a carrot (a bribe or 'wimp', not assertive enough), but neither is it supposed to be a stick (aggressive and punishing) - the way the person works with the horse is supposed to be a reflection thereof, always assertive yet never aggressive and never bribing yet friendly. I never have to boot my horses in a circle, but they also enjoy being with me and follow my leadership, so I don't have to struggle with them wanting to go back to the barn, either :) And I don't know about you Cathy, but I never walk all over a man, 'wimp' or not. I have more respect and decency than that.
For the record, I am all for good horsemanship, whatever be its name or technique, so long as it is always in the best interests of the horse. I am also not always in agreement with everything Parelli: I have my own concerns and I certainly do not like the intense marketing. On the other hand, it is a method that works and that gets the word out there. Hell, I even admit to have grossly mis-interpreted and mis-used the method for awhile! Yes, I was one of those years ago (lol!). I made a lot of mistakes. But I learnt. We are not born in perfection nor with 100 percent knowledge of anything. I learnt through reading, through watching DVD's, through playing with my horses, and through whatever instruction or clinics I could afford.
LMAO while I do not 100 percent side with what this commenter said, I loved how they said it...particularly at the end:
redroanpony says: March 10, 2010 at 1:51 pm
"I disagree, but I think I’m going to disagree with pretty much everybody here on this one. I mean, there are things the Parellis do that I think are just ineffective and/or stupid, and I don’t think this was a great example of the kind of work they do. I did watch it again, and here’s what I saw: the horse doesn’t respond to pressure. At all. Linda asks him to back, and he ignores the pressure or moves into it. He is nervous and unable to stop moving his feet. Linda asks him to back and stop moving his feet. He doesn’t. When he moves, she tries to put him back again and get him to stop moving. When she’s hitting him on the butt with the rope, she’s trying to get him to yield his hindquarters, not move forward, which is why she’s checking with the lead line. She doesn’t do either very well. She is NOT lunging this horse or in any way asking him to lunge, so I’m not sure why everybody is jumping on her “lunging” technique, but whatever.
Did Linda do a good job with it? No. She should’ve stopped very early on and gotten her hands on a carrot stick, because she needed the stick to be more effective in her communication, and it would’ve led to her being much less emphatic and repetitive with the rope. (Or maybe she should’ve just stopped and called Pat. ) She also needed the stick to be more clear when asking him to yield his head, because she’s not tall enough and he’s too tall for her to properly do what she’s trying to do. When I first watched this, I do recall wondering whether that was her first time working with a half-blind horse, because she didn’t seem entirely certain on how to account for his blindness.
But did she scar the horse for life? No. Did she make him headshy? No. I’ve used that same technique — much more gracefully, mind you — to teach countless horses to yield their forequarters. It’s part of teaching them to lead and to yield to you, and it’s no more than a tap on the cheek… even with the hardest cases, a good bump with the heel of the hand is more than enough. And what I’m seeing here isn’t Linda beating the horse in the face. She’s ineffective, but that doesn’t exactly make her a monster.
At the end of the video, there actually *is* a change: the horse is able to stand. He’s not exhausted, and I wouldn’t say he’s “frozen” at all. He appears less nervous than he began and doesn’t feel the need to constantly move his feet. He actually puts his head down of his own accord. When she asks him to back or yield he’s doing it instead of completely ignoring the pressure. It’s not huge progress, but it is progress.
I’m sure my fellow commenters will now write me off as a moron, but I see nothing worse here than a trainer letting a situation get a bit out of control, which happens to everybody now and again. I can’t really believe the amount of histrionics in these comments; you’d think everybody else just watched a video of Linda gutting a horse and eating its heart. And I thought NH people were hysterical about what *they* consider to constitute “abuse”…"
fugly says: March 9, 2010 at 4:03 pm
"Every single natural horsemanship trained horse I have ever worked with REFUSES to stop on the circle on the longe. They ALL spin toward you, if not dart in and try to run you over. I have never seen an exception to this, and many other people here will tell you they have had the same experience.
And the whole basis of all this NH crap is the idea that you can do it yourself without hiring a trainer – that somehow going to clinics and watching videos will be enough. That is the foundation of the entire Cult of Natural Horsemanship. I don’t NEED a trainer, I’m the only one who can “bond” with my horse, and if my horse “bonds” with me, he won’t do bad things to me.
That spinning sound is my eyes rolling around in my head."
I am not surprised Cathy cannot accurately communicate with a horse enough to tell it to stop on the circle and not turn and face (and what's the problem with the horse turning and facing anyway??). See the above video, though too bad some will miss out on seeing the ones of her riding she had posted on youtube in the past. I will say this: all my horses who are Parelli trained will stop on the circle should you ask. The point of the turning and facing though is this: it is not about facing you, it is about the horse disengaging their hind end, which robs their hindquarters, their engine, of driving power (since their hind legs are crossed as they disengage), and thus forces them to stop. It is also an act of respect and trust (if you cross your legs, you cannot effectively run from a predator, so we are in effect also asking the horse to relax and trust us to ensure their safety, plus we are driving their hind end away, much as a herd leader would do in dominance). Teaching them to stop in such a way makes it easy to then relax the tense or reactive horse on the ground in the future, by having them disengage. The maneuver is also taken into the saddle to either halt or calm a horse. Should you wish the horse to not face you, simply ask the horse to stop. Without asking them to disengage. And if a horse is darting in and trying to run you over, you have not been clear in your direction and/or have not been sufficiently assertive, and/or the horse has not learned to be respectful and thus is lacking in its training, Parelli or not. Pat has never told anyone using his methods to train or re-train a horse using his methods without hands-on education - in fact I have personally heard him say the exact opposite, that training is an advanced skill and requires intense one-on-one learning with a professional. His intent with his program is to help riders improve their communication (and thus partnerships) with their horses, to better themselves and tweak their way of doing things with horses, or to even look at things from another perspective, approach things differently, and change how they do things. His intent is to teach riders better horsemanship and he definitely recommends as much hands-on learning as possible. In the event someone cannot do as much hands-on instruction with a trainer as they would like though, is it not better for them to have the appropriate materials to help them, as opposed to stumbling along blindly by themselves? It's not about bonding with the horse at all, it is much more than that. Cathy, you seriously sound like some of the traditional riders I talk to sometimes, who claim they already have a bond with their horse and thus do not require anything more.
Show me "Parelli-ruined" horses, or "NH'ers mishandling horses", and I'll show the same, or more, "traditionally-trained" ruined horses or "traditional trainers and riders ruining horses". I own several such horses myself and see it every day at some of the barns I ride in. It's about the people using the technique rather than the technique itself, in this case. Piss-poor training, bad techniques, bad riding, bad horsemanship - happens across the board, no matter the method (for the most part) or discipline.
Okay, I can't help it, I thought the following conversation was just absolutely hysterical (video embedded below):
kmathews says: March 10, 2010 at 12:55 am
"Now this is a horse that has been trained well and NOT by any Parelli fanatic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHQczRbBHxI
Just goes to show you, you don’t need to be whacking a horse in the face or jerking his halter and whatever else those idiots do to train their horses."
shadowsrider says: March 10, 2010 at 1:49 pm
"I don’t really care about the tricks he does, or how he trained the horse, but I would kill to have his seat!!"
rollkursucks says: March 10, 2010 at 5:58 pm
"OMG that halfpass at 1:15 looks so cool, I really wish the video would have shown it going for more than like two seconds! Passage at the end was cute too. Didn’t like all the laying down and crawling around at the beginning– to me, that’s just begging to get your spine broken, but just my personal opinion. I’ve seen the horse agility videos before and thought they were cute. Not my cup of tea, but something I would respect as long as people train it the right way and the horses enjoy it."
Snicker snicker. Most fellow PNH'ers can understand the reason for the snicker. The sheep failed to notice the carrot stick being used. Honza Blaha's site here. Honza credits Pat Parelli's methods as the reason for the turnaround in his Gaston, who was previously very dangerous. Gaston was Honza's first horse of his own, I believe out of a Czech mustang and by a Czech warmblood stallion. The horse grew increasingly dangerous, to the point where Honza's mother and sister (who were caring for Gaston while Honza was living away at school) could no longer even leave the house for fear of the young stallion. Honza eventually took Gaston to Parelli and spent two years studying under Pat, turning Gaston into a superhorse (after gelding him!). I cannot find the story but recall reading it on the Parelli site and watching Honza on youtube tell the story himself. I love watching those two! And, if you want to see sporthorses and serious competition horses (show jumpers in particular) being raised and trained Parelli, Honza is your man too. My goodness, I just find it amusing that the sheep are admiring the very technique they are criticising. If you want to see similar trainers, check out Jonathan Field (former Parelli instructor with whom I have attended clinics with my boys) and Mike and Red Sun (and his other horses of course), on youtube. Then get back to me and tell me that type of partnership is not useful at the competitive level!
Last point was in regards to the Yo-Yo game specifically: some seem to be misunderstanding its purpose and are criticizing the fact that the horse's head goes up and their back hollows during the game. Yes this occurs when initially teaching the game, however it is not the goal as the game progresses over time. Over time the horse backs with a lowered head, at the lowest phase of 'ask' possible (preferably, an assertive body posture and a glare, with maybe a slightly wiggling finger - no ropes!). Parelli has discussed over and over the importance of the contents of the dressage Training Scale as well as the importance of teaching the horse in such a way that they carry themselves efficiently and develop correctly. Hence programs such as "Hill Therapy" and such - working your horse over hills to develop topline.
(the first part of the following is Fugly quoting a previous poster)
fugly says: March 10, 2010 at 8:33 pm
"“My gelding spent the first 6 months or so I had him spooking into me and he knocked me over 3 times. The third time (last June) I finally got my nerve up and convinced him I was going to kill him (which consisted of backing him up and screaming at him). You know what? He has spooked in place or away from me since that day.”
Amazing how that works, isn’t it? Someone realized YOU were more scary than the silly thing he was spooking at.
Congratulations. You understand horses better than Linda Parelli, already!"
Honestly? Our solution to a fearful horse spooking is to make it more scared of you and your reaction to its fear, than of the object it is afraid of? To quote John Lyons:
"It's unreasonable to ask a horse not to be afraid. That's like my telling you to go into a bad area of town for a walk at two in the morning, and not be frightened."
So if it is unreasonable to ask a horse to not be afraid, by extension, is it not unreasonable to reprimand a horse for being afraid? Why would you want a relationship in which your horse is afraid of being afraid, because it is afraid of your reaction? A horse cannot help being afraid and some horses are more prone to being alert and reactive than others - some require stronger leadership and stronger trust in their rider to follow said leadership without spooking. The solution is simple: gain your horse's trust (not just in you, but in your leadership), guarantee to your horse that you have it's back, and it will follow you wherever you ask. Do you honestly want a horse who is tense and anxious because it is afraid of you? Excuse me while I vomit. I have seen and ridden those horses, and they are an emotional mess because they're constantly trying to read and anticipate you, because they are afraid of your reaction and of doing something wrong. Horses are not spooking at 'silly things' for the fun of it, they are acting like prey animals. They have very different worries than us and they have very different perceptions, thinking, and even vision, than us. Our job is to teach them to think and to follow our leadership, to act less reactive and more relaxed. Not to scare them into submissiveness.
Cathy, for someone who purports to know so much about horse training and horse behaviour, I am ashamed for you and am dismayed at your lack of actual knowledge. I suppose I should not be overly surprised, when your 'training' looks like this though:
That was no 'surprise jump', any idiot could see that was minutes away from happening, simply by watching the first 5 seconds of the video where the horse was observed to be frantic, anxious, and tense. She was looking for an escape route, and found it. Want to know why Pat and other NH trainers have such low-fenced roundpens? So they remember to never push a horse past its threshold, to encourage themselves to create draw and relaxation in the horse. This was not a wild horse, Cathy, this is a poor QH filly that was pushed too far.
I see Cathy removed the video of her unable to effectively get even a green filly trotting under-saddle. It's not for no reason that she is unable to train the supposedly very quiet VLC stallion of hers. I just wish she would then admit her limitations (because that's ok! we all have them!!) and quit criticizing everyone else and methods she obviously does not understand nor know anything about. Cathy, if you do not know enough about training to train your own docile animals, please refrain from 'educating' the public in regards to how to train. That's all - I'm not asking for much!!!!
Here are some more goodies (*sigh*):
fugly says: March 10, 2010 at 8:31 pm
"I have sung on young OTTB’s to distract them from spooky stuff, particularly during the first rides out in the open. But an Appy is just going to laugh at you and walk your knee into the nearest tree.
And I am a huge devotee of the old fashioned butt rope for recalcitrant trailer-loaders. I’ll be damned if I’m going to screw around for 45 minutes when all it takes is 2 people and a butt rope and the horse is in the trailer in 30 seconds flat."
I just for once want to see Cathy do that to my Thoroughbred Link. When we first purchased him he wasn't the greatest loader and had you just put a butt rope on him and tried to shove him in (btdt - the barn owner bullied his way into doing so), he would have balked HUGE. He not only panicked and flew backwards, fighting, but he also double-barrel kicked at any people behind him. Now, of course, he loads fine, but the point is not to simply shove the horse in in 30s and slam the door shut! The point is for the horse to be comfortable enough with your leadership and have sufficient respect in you to do as you ask, and for the horse to be relaxed in the trailer and want to go in there. Otherwise you get the horse in there by force and have to deal with something throwing a wreck in there. I realise there are exceptions where you just have to get the horse in or there seem to be no other options in very rare cases - but those cases are not hugely common; most of the time you can work with a horse beforehand until they are comfortable loading. However with a horse who is usually ok with loading and whom I have worked with before (though obviously not enough, if he is balking at the trailer), I am going to take that 45min instead of 30s. 1,200lbs is a lot of weight and is not always physically possible to shove in in 30s anyways, not without risk to the horse. Why is Cathy's answer always force and fear?? I am asking honestly.
fugly says: March 9, 2010 at 6:39 pm
"Then the first thing I would have picked up is a longe whip…before I took the lead.
I’ve dealt with chargers. They are not hard to fix. Once or twice, bam, and they realize that on top of you is not a good place to be. You have to watch them like a hawk, because some will wait for a moment of inattention and then take another dive at you. But all in all, I could have fixed this with one or two good whacks with a whip – at the CHEST as he dove at me – NEVER at the face – and the horse would not have been confused, and it would have been over a lot faster.
This is a good example of “picking at” a horse. Instead of making a simple point, once, and making it clear what behavior was not acceptable, it’s a thousand annoying little pinpricks to the horse."
Honestly, I actually was thinking a carrot stick (or similar) would have perhaps helped Linda communicate better with the horse in question as well. However, what she did worked, and I cannot say for certain that a stick would have been more effective anyway. This horse was not a 'charger' per se, he was not doing what he did out of aggressiveness, he was simply bowling over humans in disregard, because he had other concerns on his mind and had very little respect for his handlers. I think what Linda did was much better than hitting the horse in punishment, because judging from the state the horse was in as Linda worked with it, it would have had to have been some pretty hard hits!! What Linda did took a little longer, however it was effective in earning the horse's respect and it was a long-term solution by engaging the horse's mind (she'd never have to hit the horse, as Cathy advises, or work so hard again). I actually did not see Linda hit the horse directly in zone 1 (the nose area), which is a very sensitive area - had she hit the horse there, it probably would have caused an adverse reaction. Instead, she smacked the horse loudly on the sturdy jaw and on the neck (most people I see pat their horses as hard, or harder, than Linda did! In praise!), to get its attention. You don't see the horse panic, jerk its head suddenly, or act fearful towards Linda or headshy afterwards. So obviously she did not traumatize the animal. In addition, she was not 'picking at', or 'nagging', the horse, she was correcting him whenever he made a wrong move (which, at first, was often). You certainly never see an annoyed horse, and you see a very responsive and respectful horse at the end of the session.
fugly says: March 10, 2010 at 1:32 pm
"I agree – there’s nothing NEW about it. 30 years ago, we knew we had to be the alpha or we were gonna have hoofy-prints on our backs.
It’s all marketing, packaging and unfortunately, it’s laced with a seriously deep thread of bullshit.
What it comes down to for me is this: There was absolutely nothing wrong with traditional horsemanship and traditional training. It did not need to be fixed or improved upon. Were there some jerks that needed to stop training? Sure. They still exist. Only now some of them use Natural Horsemanship, as can be seen in this video.
My main problem with NH is this: It has a culture which discourages people from improving their riding skills. You hardly ever (yes, I know, a few people do it – Chris Cox, I think) hear a NH’er say “ma’am, the horse is fine – you need to improve your seat and develop a stronger leg.” Instead, they tell you that playing this game or that game will develop some kind of magical “bond” with your horse. Do you know what an actual bond comes from? RESPECT. Horses, much like women, walk all over you if they perceive you to be a wimp. They do not love you for it. They may love carrots but they don’t go “wow, this person is so nice to me, I won’t run back to the barn with her any more!” That’s just not how the equine mind works and selling that idea is misleading tomfoolery. Your horse needs to think “wow, I’d like to go back to the barn but I know I can’t, ’cause the last time I tried I just got hauled in a circle and made to chase my tail and really, it wasn’t much fun and I didn’t wind up back at the barn any sooner.” And you can’t BE that confident rider who simply pulls the barn sour horse in a circle and sends it on in the direction YOU want to go unless you’re a good, solid competent rider.
Which takes lessons…and work without stirrups…and that hurts…and makes you sweat…and boy, you have to get off the couch and away from the DVD player and maybe, gasp, get a bit more fit to do it.
Lots of people aren’t interested in buying the truth!"
Pat does not claim to have created something new and gives full credit to his teachers, equine and human alike, both at his conferences and in his books. He also says himself that what he teaches is nothing new (and lists off where and how the methods he teach have been used in the past). Plain and simple. He knows what he is doing is not new, but he knows it is not mainstream (and it isn't, I had heard of Dorrance, Hunt, etc prior to Parelli, however I had never actually seen their techniques nor did anyone in my areas ever use them; I had no idea what they were about). Many people I encounter still know nothing about NH (and similar) techniques; probably a good 90 percent of the riders at any of the barns I have boarded at use very traditional techniques - techniques that are usually as bad as and worse than those Cathy advocates for (though I am going to say that some of the techniques are soft and gentle, yet assertive - ones that I greatly admire and respect). You are right, Cathy, that Parelli is perhaps over-marketed, however that does not take away from the method itself. No, one cannot learns solely from DVD's, however they can still learn from them! DVD's and books can lead to experimentation, correction, adaptation, and learning in one's methods and personally, I see nothing wrong with that. Pat and Linda are not advocating that individuals replace hands-on learning and instruction with DVD's, they are simply presenting a method that includes materials to help the rider. While you (Cathy) might feel that there is no reason to ever improve one's method, I stand by Pat's philosophy: "Good, better, best, never let it rest." Strive to be better and constantly improve yourself and your relationship(s) with your horse(s) - and constantly improve your horses! Furthermore, if Cathy honestly knew anything about Parelli, she would realize they do in fact focus on the rider. In fact, it's all about the rider - there are no problem horses, only problem riders. Which is why they do not focus on the horse, but rather upon teaching the human, which includes proper equitation, among other important skills. Lastly, respect is paramount in PNH - the idea is to create a partnership that balances trust and respect and that is based on love, language and leadership...in equal doses. Pat and Linda recognize that one cannot have a partnership that does not include respect and have developed a program that revolves around earning both trust and respect (just take a look at the 7 games!). Even the carrot stick obtained its name for that reason: it is not supposed to be a carrot (a bribe or 'wimp', not assertive enough), but neither is it supposed to be a stick (aggressive and punishing) - the way the person works with the horse is supposed to be a reflection thereof, always assertive yet never aggressive and never bribing yet friendly. I never have to boot my horses in a circle, but they also enjoy being with me and follow my leadership, so I don't have to struggle with them wanting to go back to the barn, either :) And I don't know about you Cathy, but I never walk all over a man, 'wimp' or not. I have more respect and decency than that.
For the record, I am all for good horsemanship, whatever be its name or technique, so long as it is always in the best interests of the horse. I am also not always in agreement with everything Parelli: I have my own concerns and I certainly do not like the intense marketing. On the other hand, it is a method that works and that gets the word out there. Hell, I even admit to have grossly mis-interpreted and mis-used the method for awhile! Yes, I was one of those years ago (lol!). I made a lot of mistakes. But I learnt. We are not born in perfection nor with 100 percent knowledge of anything. I learnt through reading, through watching DVD's, through playing with my horses, and through whatever instruction or clinics I could afford.
LMAO while I do not 100 percent side with what this commenter said, I loved how they said it...particularly at the end:
redroanpony says: March 10, 2010 at 1:51 pm
"I disagree, but I think I’m going to disagree with pretty much everybody here on this one. I mean, there are things the Parellis do that I think are just ineffective and/or stupid, and I don’t think this was a great example of the kind of work they do. I did watch it again, and here’s what I saw: the horse doesn’t respond to pressure. At all. Linda asks him to back, and he ignores the pressure or moves into it. He is nervous and unable to stop moving his feet. Linda asks him to back and stop moving his feet. He doesn’t. When he moves, she tries to put him back again and get him to stop moving. When she’s hitting him on the butt with the rope, she’s trying to get him to yield his hindquarters, not move forward, which is why she’s checking with the lead line. She doesn’t do either very well. She is NOT lunging this horse or in any way asking him to lunge, so I’m not sure why everybody is jumping on her “lunging” technique, but whatever.
Did Linda do a good job with it? No. She should’ve stopped very early on and gotten her hands on a carrot stick, because she needed the stick to be more effective in her communication, and it would’ve led to her being much less emphatic and repetitive with the rope. (Or maybe she should’ve just stopped and called Pat. ) She also needed the stick to be more clear when asking him to yield his head, because she’s not tall enough and he’s too tall for her to properly do what she’s trying to do. When I first watched this, I do recall wondering whether that was her first time working with a half-blind horse, because she didn’t seem entirely certain on how to account for his blindness.
But did she scar the horse for life? No. Did she make him headshy? No. I’ve used that same technique — much more gracefully, mind you — to teach countless horses to yield their forequarters. It’s part of teaching them to lead and to yield to you, and it’s no more than a tap on the cheek… even with the hardest cases, a good bump with the heel of the hand is more than enough. And what I’m seeing here isn’t Linda beating the horse in the face. She’s ineffective, but that doesn’t exactly make her a monster.
At the end of the video, there actually *is* a change: the horse is able to stand. He’s not exhausted, and I wouldn’t say he’s “frozen” at all. He appears less nervous than he began and doesn’t feel the need to constantly move his feet. He actually puts his head down of his own accord. When she asks him to back or yield he’s doing it instead of completely ignoring the pressure. It’s not huge progress, but it is progress.
I’m sure my fellow commenters will now write me off as a moron, but I see nothing worse here than a trainer letting a situation get a bit out of control, which happens to everybody now and again. I can’t really believe the amount of histrionics in these comments; you’d think everybody else just watched a video of Linda gutting a horse and eating its heart. And I thought NH people were hysterical about what *they* consider to constitute “abuse”…"
fugly says: March 9, 2010 at 4:03 pm
"Every single natural horsemanship trained horse I have ever worked with REFUSES to stop on the circle on the longe. They ALL spin toward you, if not dart in and try to run you over. I have never seen an exception to this, and many other people here will tell you they have had the same experience.
And the whole basis of all this NH crap is the idea that you can do it yourself without hiring a trainer – that somehow going to clinics and watching videos will be enough. That is the foundation of the entire Cult of Natural Horsemanship. I don’t NEED a trainer, I’m the only one who can “bond” with my horse, and if my horse “bonds” with me, he won’t do bad things to me.
That spinning sound is my eyes rolling around in my head."
I am not surprised Cathy cannot accurately communicate with a horse enough to tell it to stop on the circle and not turn and face (and what's the problem with the horse turning and facing anyway??). See the above video, though too bad some will miss out on seeing the ones of her riding she had posted on youtube in the past. I will say this: all my horses who are Parelli trained will stop on the circle should you ask. The point of the turning and facing though is this: it is not about facing you, it is about the horse disengaging their hind end, which robs their hindquarters, their engine, of driving power (since their hind legs are crossed as they disengage), and thus forces them to stop. It is also an act of respect and trust (if you cross your legs, you cannot effectively run from a predator, so we are in effect also asking the horse to relax and trust us to ensure their safety, plus we are driving their hind end away, much as a herd leader would do in dominance). Teaching them to stop in such a way makes it easy to then relax the tense or reactive horse on the ground in the future, by having them disengage. The maneuver is also taken into the saddle to either halt or calm a horse. Should you wish the horse to not face you, simply ask the horse to stop. Without asking them to disengage. And if a horse is darting in and trying to run you over, you have not been clear in your direction and/or have not been sufficiently assertive, and/or the horse has not learned to be respectful and thus is lacking in its training, Parelli or not. Pat has never told anyone using his methods to train or re-train a horse using his methods without hands-on education - in fact I have personally heard him say the exact opposite, that training is an advanced skill and requires intense one-on-one learning with a professional. His intent with his program is to help riders improve their communication (and thus partnerships) with their horses, to better themselves and tweak their way of doing things with horses, or to even look at things from another perspective, approach things differently, and change how they do things. His intent is to teach riders better horsemanship and he definitely recommends as much hands-on learning as possible. In the event someone cannot do as much hands-on instruction with a trainer as they would like though, is it not better for them to have the appropriate materials to help them, as opposed to stumbling along blindly by themselves? It's not about bonding with the horse at all, it is much more than that. Cathy, you seriously sound like some of the traditional riders I talk to sometimes, who claim they already have a bond with their horse and thus do not require anything more.
Show me "Parelli-ruined" horses, or "NH'ers mishandling horses", and I'll show the same, or more, "traditionally-trained" ruined horses or "traditional trainers and riders ruining horses". I own several such horses myself and see it every day at some of the barns I ride in. It's about the people using the technique rather than the technique itself, in this case. Piss-poor training, bad techniques, bad riding, bad horsemanship - happens across the board, no matter the method (for the most part) or discipline.
Okay, I can't help it, I thought the following conversation was just absolutely hysterical (video embedded below):
kmathews says: March 10, 2010 at 12:55 am
"Now this is a horse that has been trained well and NOT by any Parelli fanatic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHQczRbBHxI
Just goes to show you, you don’t need to be whacking a horse in the face or jerking his halter and whatever else those idiots do to train their horses."
shadowsrider says: March 10, 2010 at 1:49 pm
"I don’t really care about the tricks he does, or how he trained the horse, but I would kill to have his seat!!"
rollkursucks says: March 10, 2010 at 5:58 pm
"OMG that halfpass at 1:15 looks so cool, I really wish the video would have shown it going for more than like two seconds! Passage at the end was cute too. Didn’t like all the laying down and crawling around at the beginning– to me, that’s just begging to get your spine broken, but just my personal opinion. I’ve seen the horse agility videos before and thought they were cute. Not my cup of tea, but something I would respect as long as people train it the right way and the horses enjoy it."
Snicker snicker. Most fellow PNH'ers can understand the reason for the snicker. The sheep failed to notice the carrot stick being used. Honza Blaha's site here. Honza credits Pat Parelli's methods as the reason for the turnaround in his Gaston, who was previously very dangerous. Gaston was Honza's first horse of his own, I believe out of a Czech mustang and by a Czech warmblood stallion. The horse grew increasingly dangerous, to the point where Honza's mother and sister (who were caring for Gaston while Honza was living away at school) could no longer even leave the house for fear of the young stallion. Honza eventually took Gaston to Parelli and spent two years studying under Pat, turning Gaston into a superhorse (after gelding him!). I cannot find the story but recall reading it on the Parelli site and watching Honza on youtube tell the story himself. I love watching those two! And, if you want to see sporthorses and serious competition horses (show jumpers in particular) being raised and trained Parelli, Honza is your man too. My goodness, I just find it amusing that the sheep are admiring the very technique they are criticising. If you want to see similar trainers, check out Jonathan Field (former Parelli instructor with whom I have attended clinics with my boys) and Mike and Red Sun (and his other horses of course), on youtube. Then get back to me and tell me that type of partnership is not useful at the competitive level!
Last point was in regards to the Yo-Yo game specifically: some seem to be misunderstanding its purpose and are criticizing the fact that the horse's head goes up and their back hollows during the game. Yes this occurs when initially teaching the game, however it is not the goal as the game progresses over time. Over time the horse backs with a lowered head, at the lowest phase of 'ask' possible (preferably, an assertive body posture and a glare, with maybe a slightly wiggling finger - no ropes!). Parelli has discussed over and over the importance of the contents of the dressage Training Scale as well as the importance of teaching the horse in such a way that they carry themselves efficiently and develop correctly. Hence programs such as "Hill Therapy" and such - working your horse over hills to develop topline.
Friday, March 12, 2010
Fugly Shit of the Day
Alriiight! Sorry for the absence! Instead of feeding you a long list of excuses for why I have not posted the last two weeks, let's just start with a blog :) I thought I'd start with some juicier, more interesting stuff, by commenting on a few of the latest FHOTD postings (oy!) in a small series of posts. I have been trying to stay away, but I felt the last couple blogs of hers were more ludicrous than normal and wanted to perhaps lend some insight/an alternate perspective to the subject of the last few blogs of Cathy's.
SO! To start! The following is a video titled 'Horse-Man-Shit' that Cathy posted the other day:
The video is of Linda Parelli working with a horse who is blind in one eye (how blind, we do not know) - Barney. Please let me explain what I see, from a Parelli perspective, before I correct some of Cathy and her sheep's crazy assumptions.
As a sidenote, concerning Parelli Natural Horsemanship: It is simply a derivative of successful Natural Horsemanship methods already in existence which Parelli packaged into a program that enables people to learn more in a shorter period of time, sort of like a condensed course. Pat and Linda stake no claims that PNH is NEW nor do they claim it to be the only way.
But back to the subject at hand. At first glance, I see Linda showing the horse's owner/rider how to teach said horse the yo-yo game. In the yo-yo game, the person at the end of the line goes through a particular set of phases of 'ask':
Phase 1: glare at the horse, pick up an assertive body posture
Phase 2: wiggle the finger
Phase 3: wiggle the wrist
Phase 4: wiggle the forearm
Phase 5: wiggle the whole arm
Phase 6: get bigger and bigger in the 'wiggle', including bumping the horse with the lead if necessary (this really does not hurt, obviously, it just involves giving short, sharp 'bumps' to the lead under the horse's chin).
The horse's job is to back up when asked, by releasing to the pressure on the lead/halter - that's the key, we are teaching the horse to release to pressure (rather than push into or through it, as they will naturally tend to do). By posing the request in phases of ask, you allow the horse to respond to a lower phase and thus create a lighter, responsive, and sensitive horse as they start responding to the lower phases. Eventually, you pick up an assertive body posture and glare at your horse, and he backs away until you say otherwise. This is akin to a horse within the herd giving your horse the stink eye, then following it up with escalating body language and finally with action if necessary (bite/kick). The point is to have the horse move its feet more than you (ie. you are supposed to be able to stand still while the horse backs), which creates submissiveness in the horse (in the herd, he who moves his feet the least is the most dominant). Should the horse not respond to lower phases, you obviously move up into higher phases. Should the horse not respond to lower phases of ask and walk forward, then he is immediately met with higher phases of ask that match the intensity of his movement forward. If he continues forward, you hold the highest phase of ask, including bumping, until the horse responds (consistency in the proper position - then you wait for the horse to figure it out and respond appropriately when he responds). In this fashion, the horse suddenly meets a sort of 'wall' of resistance when he ignores your initial cue(s) and hits a higher level of resistance that forces his attention on you. You are essentially making the wrong answer (moving forward through he pressure) hard (by making it suddenly uncomfortable for the horse) and the right answer (stopping, then backing) easy (by stopping and releasing). You do not release (if you can help it) until the horse stops, then you eventually ask more of the horse, not releasing until he backs. By making the start (dramatically increasing to Phase 6 when the horse walks forward, ignoring the pressure, then dramatically stopping all phases and movement/ask when the horse stops or backs), you make it clear to the horse what the 'correct' answer is.
The other side of the yo-yo, which is not shown yet in the video (because they were not yet at that point), is to comb the rope in stages, relax your body posture, and ask the horse to come back in to you. The point is to basically teach the horse its own language...but in 'human words', as per human body language, that is. You send the horse away, and draw it back in to you, creating a relationship of 51/49 percent draw versus drive. You want a lot of drive, because that translates to respect and your space being respected, however you want slightly more draw, because obviously you want the horse to want to be with you.
So, to analyze the video specifically with this in mind, at first you definitely see a horse who has obviously been permitted to not pay attention to people for a long time, and whose respect has never been earned. He belligerently (not maliciously, but purposely) walks through all pressure, ignores all cues, and remains intent on his own purpose - that is, to observe whatever it is that has got his attention across the yard. He doesn't care or give one thought to Linda or his owner and even tries to walk over them both. How would that translate in a herd? You can bet your butt that the dominant horse would be asking in phases too and if he were still walking all over the lead horse (well, he probably would not get that far even), he'd hit Phase 6 - teeth and/or hooves. So Linda does the exact same thing. She increases her phases of ask, then holds it at Phase 6. The horse is not fearful of her - he even responds sluggishly to her, has forward ears not even directed at her, and, well, he's not even looking at her. If he were afraid of Linda, he would be staring her down (at least with his good eye!), stance wide, head up, and nostrils flared. He is pretty disrespectful and generally is not concerned about Linda.
At approx. 1:00 in the video, you can see the horse is simply walking through Linda's Phase 6 even, so Linda decides to get him to yield his hindquarters. In doing so, he would then be facing her and thus set up again for her to re-try the yo-yo game. In addition, having him disengage his hindquarters would be an act of respect out of the horse - as his level of respect increases, so will his willingness to do as she asks (try to 'answer' to the yo-yo game) and to focus on her. However the horse instead continuously moves his hind over just enough to get away from her pressure, but does not fully disengage (cross his hinds, stop, face her and pay attention), because, again, he does not care. He has no need to. He's never had to before, and he is certainly not going to start now. Linda is taking a horse who has been allowed to be disrespectful for a long time (and who, I might add, has not been treated entirely well by humans), and earn its respect. Of course she is not a horse, so it is a bit more difficult, especially since she cannot escalate her phases as powerfully as another horse could! The horse is trying to find the right answer, which is to back up, however he is not trying all that hard because his heart is not in it and he is focused elsewhere - he sees no need to change. He is uncomfortable and therefore moves his feet in an effort to relieve the discomfort, but he is not so uncomfortable (and relaxed in the surroundings) as to honestly pay attention to Linda and what she is asking. When he does finally stop moving his feet, as Linda requests, you can see Linda relieve the pressure (1:06). It was not what she initially wanted, but it was a move in the right direction, so she rewarded it.
Since the horse's front is what continuously moves around without respect (horses dominate through their front end - this horse is running people over with his front end and is ignoring all cues given to his front end, he is literally running through all pressure with his front), Linda sets to moving his front end around and having him yield there (approx. 1:58 and onwards). You then see Linda go back and forth between asking the horse to move his front end around (obviously on his sighted side), where he should be halting all hind movement and crossing his fronts over to move away from her, to correcting him when he yields 'just enough' and tries to walk away from her to remove himself from the pressure. She corrects his forward movement with bumps to his lead, and increases her phases of ask as she drives his front end, by slapping his neck (4:31). Honestly, I think the sound the camera picks up is louder than the actual slap and I think what Linda does is mostly noise. You see the horse react, but not fearfully - it simply gets his attention and he moves around. He is obviously not head-shy from her escalated phase (the slap on the neck/jaw area), else he would be throwing his head violently when she waves her hand at him later. Note how she picks up her body language, then picks up her hands, then waves her hands, and increases the intensity of her hands waving and moves her hands closer and closer to the horse. She does not walk over to the horse and slap him on the neck, she moves through phases. Pretty soon the horse is moving off of her body language and her hand. It is the same concept as waving a leadrope/whip at a horse and increasing the 'commotion', walking closer and allowing the horse to run into it if he does not move.
Some were commenting that Linda never releases the pressure. She does not release the pressure much of the time at the beginning, because the horse does nothing to warrant a release of pressure! He is not trying different answers, he is simply walking forwards, through the pressure. Finally he backs and stands at 3:00, and Linda stops. At 2:43, the horse also backs successfully, though with a few minor corrections, and Linda allows him a release of pressure. At 2:52 the horse is released again, as a reward. HE moves forward, which warrants an immediate increase in pressure from Linda - he stops, Linda releases the pressure and allows him a long rest break (during which he actually stays this time). The horse is finally figuring out what he is supposed to do, because he is finally putting some thought and effort into it. At 3:10, Linda re-asks her original request after the break and is rewarded with a much better yo-yo than at the beginning of the session. Throughout, Linda starts with small phases and increases the pressure as the horse ignores her; when he walks through her pressure, she immediately gets 'big', but when he releases, she releases.
At 2:38 you can see Linda toss the rope at the horse's chest. First time: very little response (horse continues to ignore her). Second time the rope touches the horse's chest lightly and grabs his attention. Once Linda has the horse's attention, she stops and asks the horse what she was originally going to ask.
Re: Linda not being in the proper position, I personally find she is at nearly all times (as much as can be expected). Each time she is in the incorrect position, she corrects herself. Case in point: 1:38 where she gets onto what I assume is the horse's blind side (or rather, he places himself there). She calmly stops and repositions herself.
My thought is that Cathy really does not even understand what is going on here. So how can you criticize a method without understanding it? I understand if it is obvious abuse or such, but when you actually sit down and evaluate this video, you can see that Linda makes great progress with the horse, who is never reactive or fearful. The horse in question jumps a little at 3:32, but because he is tense and not paying complete attention as he gets used to responding to the lower phases; he is obviously not fearfully reactive at all (if that were the case, he would have jumped a lot further and would have moved his feet a lot more!). By the finish, the horse is respectfully paying attention, is backing as requested, and is still relaxed and has his ears forward. So then it is simply an alternate method that yields like results. Cathy however keeps comparing this to longeing. It's not. It is completely different. Linda is not getting the horse to do rollbacks (she is attempting to have him yield his hindquarters as he continuously walks through her pressure), the horse is not pissed off (where are the laid back ears or switching tail?) or confused (where is the reactiveness or fear?), Linda is not turning her back to the horse (who moves so quick he gets behind her once), the 'longe line' is not lying on the ground (maybe we did not watch the same videos Cathy, but I never saw the horse at risk of stepping on the line), and Linda flaps her elbows maybe once or twice to create a commotion to get the horse to move out of her space.
As for those of us doing Parelli who 'duck', it's called body language. The point is to focus on the horse's hind, but to make it obvious to the horse and direct your energy towards the horse. That's the best I can explain it, really. It just feels natural, when I do it, and the horses understand what I want (a disengagement of the hind end). Is it really hurting anyone?
Is it difficult to 're-train' a horse trained to work in such a manner? Hell no. I can have (and have had) any of my horses 'longe properly' (in accordance to Cathy's rules: no turning and facing, halting straight, not coming in, etc) with some simple body language. No re-training necessary, just proper communication with the horse. If I want the horse to slow/halt without turning in to me, I can a) use voice commands (if I have taught them) or b) simply hold the longe whip in front of the horse, who will immediately slow or stop as appropriate. I want them to stay out there on the circle? I add a little pressure from where I am standing (via body posture and/or hand motion) to instruct the horse to keep their front end straight. I want them to move out again? Point in the direction I wish them to go in. It's pretty damn simple and easy.
As far as 'rollbacks' on the 'longe', if you do not understand it, ASK!! I do it when horse is not paying attention and to gain their focus, when I wish to earn more respect from the horse (ie. asking for quick transitions, changes in pace, changes in direction, changes in path, etc), to make the wrong answer hard and the right answer easy (such as maintaining gait), etc. It keeps a horse's mind working and engaged. The point is not to send the horse out on a circle and have them circle around you endlessly. It's 2-4 laps or else you get the horse's mind working. It is certainly not damaging to legs or tendons either when done with care (ie. not endless circling) and over short periods.
Cathy, I am just plain confused as to how this (which is so obviously not longeing) is comparable to your VLC longeing in public. Linda and Pat have accomplished much more than you ('longeing' off of horses' backs, in public, in crowded spaces, a number of horses at once, loose stallions among loose mares, etc) and thus could certainly do the same as you and your little fugly VLC. That is not what was going on here, plus this was a horse 'in training' per se, not a horse further along in its training. And what did you mean by saying that he would not be running her over if she had a proper whip and line? Are you whipping the horse into place??
I did not read all 500+ comments and really do not intend to, but here were a few comments I wanted to respond to that I happened across:
ktibb says: March 9, 2010 at 5:21 pm Did I really hear suggest “jumping-Jacks”??
Yes, the idea is to create commotion that catches the horse's attention and causes it to move out of your space. If that means jumping jacks, then so be it. This allows you to get quite 'loud' in your phases or 'ask' without touching the horse.
newrider says: March 9, 2010 at 3:31 pm The best...this horse is blind in one eye. He has to move his head (almost looking like he’s taking his eyes off her) in order to simply see her.
But he is obviously looking up and over her, and past her. If he were paying attention, he would (surprise!) actually be responding rather than pushing through her pressure.
For those commenting there was no wind and therefore the horse (Barney) could not possibly be spooked? Well listen to the audio and you'll hear the wind. He was not spooked in a reactive way, but he was very distracted (obviously).
Here is Linda's statement and a letter from Barney's owner. I thought the following (anonymous) comment posted under Linda's response was very appropriate:
I don't see a horse who is afraid of humans/people incl Linda, I see a horse who is so distracted and focused on everything else but the one holding the lead rope, all Linda is doing is trying to get the horse to pay attention to her instead of things in the distance and this is to avoid getting run over by the horse.
You can also see even though they have tried to cut it out, several times where Linda does reward the horse by taking off the pressure, standing still and by rewarding him with her voice as well.
Either you didn't watch out for this or you just couldn't read it, maybe try to watch it again with open mind and eyes.
Why don't all of you with such negative views and thoughts, film your own relationship with your horses and post them here? You get your chance to show that your horses let you touch them all over without fear or resistance, not step on your feet or walk into you when you are leading them, that they can trailer load without ropes, whips and force, can stand still when mounted without someone holding them, can be ridden without sharp bits, martingales or other straps and who are confident in you as their owner/s, doesn't run out of their stables as soon as you open the door, comes to you when you go out to catch them.
Looking forward to seeing them.
I posted two. Did you see them? My negative attitude towards many Parelli techniques affects my relationship with my horses how? As a matter of fact, if I jump and shout and wave my arms, my pinto only comes to me faster - he'll break from a walk to a trot. I have no video of that, as it's impossible to film while jumping and shouting and waving my arms.
Another of my horses was extremely difficult to catch when I first got him. While he still doesn't come running to me, the only times he ever even thinks of using avoidance methods is when he sees me worm another horse first.
I am not claiming perfection in anyone, including myself, however I just do not see the 'abuse' and 'ineffectiveness' Cathy is proclaiming in this (old) training video.
SO! To start! The following is a video titled 'Horse-Man-Shit' that Cathy posted the other day:
The video is of Linda Parelli working with a horse who is blind in one eye (how blind, we do not know) - Barney. Please let me explain what I see, from a Parelli perspective, before I correct some of Cathy and her sheep's crazy assumptions.
As a sidenote, concerning Parelli Natural Horsemanship: It is simply a derivative of successful Natural Horsemanship methods already in existence which Parelli packaged into a program that enables people to learn more in a shorter period of time, sort of like a condensed course. Pat and Linda stake no claims that PNH is NEW nor do they claim it to be the only way.
But back to the subject at hand. At first glance, I see Linda showing the horse's owner/rider how to teach said horse the yo-yo game. In the yo-yo game, the person at the end of the line goes through a particular set of phases of 'ask':
Phase 1: glare at the horse, pick up an assertive body posture
Phase 2: wiggle the finger
Phase 3: wiggle the wrist
Phase 4: wiggle the forearm
Phase 5: wiggle the whole arm
Phase 6: get bigger and bigger in the 'wiggle', including bumping the horse with the lead if necessary (this really does not hurt, obviously, it just involves giving short, sharp 'bumps' to the lead under the horse's chin).
The horse's job is to back up when asked, by releasing to the pressure on the lead/halter - that's the key, we are teaching the horse to release to pressure (rather than push into or through it, as they will naturally tend to do). By posing the request in phases of ask, you allow the horse to respond to a lower phase and thus create a lighter, responsive, and sensitive horse as they start responding to the lower phases. Eventually, you pick up an assertive body posture and glare at your horse, and he backs away until you say otherwise. This is akin to a horse within the herd giving your horse the stink eye, then following it up with escalating body language and finally with action if necessary (bite/kick). The point is to have the horse move its feet more than you (ie. you are supposed to be able to stand still while the horse backs), which creates submissiveness in the horse (in the herd, he who moves his feet the least is the most dominant). Should the horse not respond to lower phases, you obviously move up into higher phases. Should the horse not respond to lower phases of ask and walk forward, then he is immediately met with higher phases of ask that match the intensity of his movement forward. If he continues forward, you hold the highest phase of ask, including bumping, until the horse responds (consistency in the proper position - then you wait for the horse to figure it out and respond appropriately when he responds). In this fashion, the horse suddenly meets a sort of 'wall' of resistance when he ignores your initial cue(s) and hits a higher level of resistance that forces his attention on you. You are essentially making the wrong answer (moving forward through he pressure) hard (by making it suddenly uncomfortable for the horse) and the right answer (stopping, then backing) easy (by stopping and releasing). You do not release (if you can help it) until the horse stops, then you eventually ask more of the horse, not releasing until he backs. By making the start (dramatically increasing to Phase 6 when the horse walks forward, ignoring the pressure, then dramatically stopping all phases and movement/ask when the horse stops or backs), you make it clear to the horse what the 'correct' answer is.
The other side of the yo-yo, which is not shown yet in the video (because they were not yet at that point), is to comb the rope in stages, relax your body posture, and ask the horse to come back in to you. The point is to basically teach the horse its own language...but in 'human words', as per human body language, that is. You send the horse away, and draw it back in to you, creating a relationship of 51/49 percent draw versus drive. You want a lot of drive, because that translates to respect and your space being respected, however you want slightly more draw, because obviously you want the horse to want to be with you.
So, to analyze the video specifically with this in mind, at first you definitely see a horse who has obviously been permitted to not pay attention to people for a long time, and whose respect has never been earned. He belligerently (not maliciously, but purposely) walks through all pressure, ignores all cues, and remains intent on his own purpose - that is, to observe whatever it is that has got his attention across the yard. He doesn't care or give one thought to Linda or his owner and even tries to walk over them both. How would that translate in a herd? You can bet your butt that the dominant horse would be asking in phases too and if he were still walking all over the lead horse (well, he probably would not get that far even), he'd hit Phase 6 - teeth and/or hooves. So Linda does the exact same thing. She increases her phases of ask, then holds it at Phase 6. The horse is not fearful of her - he even responds sluggishly to her, has forward ears not even directed at her, and, well, he's not even looking at her. If he were afraid of Linda, he would be staring her down (at least with his good eye!), stance wide, head up, and nostrils flared. He is pretty disrespectful and generally is not concerned about Linda.
At approx. 1:00 in the video, you can see the horse is simply walking through Linda's Phase 6 even, so Linda decides to get him to yield his hindquarters. In doing so, he would then be facing her and thus set up again for her to re-try the yo-yo game. In addition, having him disengage his hindquarters would be an act of respect out of the horse - as his level of respect increases, so will his willingness to do as she asks (try to 'answer' to the yo-yo game) and to focus on her. However the horse instead continuously moves his hind over just enough to get away from her pressure, but does not fully disengage (cross his hinds, stop, face her and pay attention), because, again, he does not care. He has no need to. He's never had to before, and he is certainly not going to start now. Linda is taking a horse who has been allowed to be disrespectful for a long time (and who, I might add, has not been treated entirely well by humans), and earn its respect. Of course she is not a horse, so it is a bit more difficult, especially since she cannot escalate her phases as powerfully as another horse could! The horse is trying to find the right answer, which is to back up, however he is not trying all that hard because his heart is not in it and he is focused elsewhere - he sees no need to change. He is uncomfortable and therefore moves his feet in an effort to relieve the discomfort, but he is not so uncomfortable (and relaxed in the surroundings) as to honestly pay attention to Linda and what she is asking. When he does finally stop moving his feet, as Linda requests, you can see Linda relieve the pressure (1:06). It was not what she initially wanted, but it was a move in the right direction, so she rewarded it.
Since the horse's front is what continuously moves around without respect (horses dominate through their front end - this horse is running people over with his front end and is ignoring all cues given to his front end, he is literally running through all pressure with his front), Linda sets to moving his front end around and having him yield there (approx. 1:58 and onwards). You then see Linda go back and forth between asking the horse to move his front end around (obviously on his sighted side), where he should be halting all hind movement and crossing his fronts over to move away from her, to correcting him when he yields 'just enough' and tries to walk away from her to remove himself from the pressure. She corrects his forward movement with bumps to his lead, and increases her phases of ask as she drives his front end, by slapping his neck (4:31). Honestly, I think the sound the camera picks up is louder than the actual slap and I think what Linda does is mostly noise. You see the horse react, but not fearfully - it simply gets his attention and he moves around. He is obviously not head-shy from her escalated phase (the slap on the neck/jaw area), else he would be throwing his head violently when she waves her hand at him later. Note how she picks up her body language, then picks up her hands, then waves her hands, and increases the intensity of her hands waving and moves her hands closer and closer to the horse. She does not walk over to the horse and slap him on the neck, she moves through phases. Pretty soon the horse is moving off of her body language and her hand. It is the same concept as waving a leadrope/whip at a horse and increasing the 'commotion', walking closer and allowing the horse to run into it if he does not move.
Some were commenting that Linda never releases the pressure. She does not release the pressure much of the time at the beginning, because the horse does nothing to warrant a release of pressure! He is not trying different answers, he is simply walking forwards, through the pressure. Finally he backs and stands at 3:00, and Linda stops. At 2:43, the horse also backs successfully, though with a few minor corrections, and Linda allows him a release of pressure. At 2:52 the horse is released again, as a reward. HE moves forward, which warrants an immediate increase in pressure from Linda - he stops, Linda releases the pressure and allows him a long rest break (during which he actually stays this time). The horse is finally figuring out what he is supposed to do, because he is finally putting some thought and effort into it. At 3:10, Linda re-asks her original request after the break and is rewarded with a much better yo-yo than at the beginning of the session. Throughout, Linda starts with small phases and increases the pressure as the horse ignores her; when he walks through her pressure, she immediately gets 'big', but when he releases, she releases.
At 2:38 you can see Linda toss the rope at the horse's chest. First time: very little response (horse continues to ignore her). Second time the rope touches the horse's chest lightly and grabs his attention. Once Linda has the horse's attention, she stops and asks the horse what she was originally going to ask.
Re: Linda not being in the proper position, I personally find she is at nearly all times (as much as can be expected). Each time she is in the incorrect position, she corrects herself. Case in point: 1:38 where she gets onto what I assume is the horse's blind side (or rather, he places himself there). She calmly stops and repositions herself.
My thought is that Cathy really does not even understand what is going on here. So how can you criticize a method without understanding it? I understand if it is obvious abuse or such, but when you actually sit down and evaluate this video, you can see that Linda makes great progress with the horse, who is never reactive or fearful. The horse in question jumps a little at 3:32, but because he is tense and not paying complete attention as he gets used to responding to the lower phases; he is obviously not fearfully reactive at all (if that were the case, he would have jumped a lot further and would have moved his feet a lot more!). By the finish, the horse is respectfully paying attention, is backing as requested, and is still relaxed and has his ears forward. So then it is simply an alternate method that yields like results. Cathy however keeps comparing this to longeing. It's not. It is completely different. Linda is not getting the horse to do rollbacks (she is attempting to have him yield his hindquarters as he continuously walks through her pressure), the horse is not pissed off (where are the laid back ears or switching tail?) or confused (where is the reactiveness or fear?), Linda is not turning her back to the horse (who moves so quick he gets behind her once), the 'longe line' is not lying on the ground (maybe we did not watch the same videos Cathy, but I never saw the horse at risk of stepping on the line), and Linda flaps her elbows maybe once or twice to create a commotion to get the horse to move out of her space.
As for those of us doing Parelli who 'duck', it's called body language. The point is to focus on the horse's hind, but to make it obvious to the horse and direct your energy towards the horse. That's the best I can explain it, really. It just feels natural, when I do it, and the horses understand what I want (a disengagement of the hind end). Is it really hurting anyone?
Is it difficult to 're-train' a horse trained to work in such a manner? Hell no. I can have (and have had) any of my horses 'longe properly' (in accordance to Cathy's rules: no turning and facing, halting straight, not coming in, etc) with some simple body language. No re-training necessary, just proper communication with the horse. If I want the horse to slow/halt without turning in to me, I can a) use voice commands (if I have taught them) or b) simply hold the longe whip in front of the horse, who will immediately slow or stop as appropriate. I want them to stay out there on the circle? I add a little pressure from where I am standing (via body posture and/or hand motion) to instruct the horse to keep their front end straight. I want them to move out again? Point in the direction I wish them to go in. It's pretty damn simple and easy.
As far as 'rollbacks' on the 'longe', if you do not understand it, ASK!! I do it when horse is not paying attention and to gain their focus, when I wish to earn more respect from the horse (ie. asking for quick transitions, changes in pace, changes in direction, changes in path, etc), to make the wrong answer hard and the right answer easy (such as maintaining gait), etc. It keeps a horse's mind working and engaged. The point is not to send the horse out on a circle and have them circle around you endlessly. It's 2-4 laps or else you get the horse's mind working. It is certainly not damaging to legs or tendons either when done with care (ie. not endless circling) and over short periods.
Cathy, I am just plain confused as to how this (which is so obviously not longeing) is comparable to your VLC longeing in public. Linda and Pat have accomplished much more than you ('longeing' off of horses' backs, in public, in crowded spaces, a number of horses at once, loose stallions among loose mares, etc) and thus could certainly do the same as you and your little fugly VLC. That is not what was going on here, plus this was a horse 'in training' per se, not a horse further along in its training. And what did you mean by saying that he would not be running her over if she had a proper whip and line? Are you whipping the horse into place??
I did not read all 500+ comments and really do not intend to, but here were a few comments I wanted to respond to that I happened across:
ktibb says: March 9, 2010 at 5:21 pm Did I really hear suggest “jumping-Jacks”??
Yes, the idea is to create commotion that catches the horse's attention and causes it to move out of your space. If that means jumping jacks, then so be it. This allows you to get quite 'loud' in your phases or 'ask' without touching the horse.
newrider says: March 9, 2010 at 3:31 pm The best...this horse is blind in one eye. He has to move his head (almost looking like he’s taking his eyes off her) in order to simply see her.
But he is obviously looking up and over her, and past her. If he were paying attention, he would (surprise!) actually be responding rather than pushing through her pressure.
For those commenting there was no wind and therefore the horse (Barney) could not possibly be spooked? Well listen to the audio and you'll hear the wind. He was not spooked in a reactive way, but he was very distracted (obviously).
Here is Linda's statement and a letter from Barney's owner. I thought the following (anonymous) comment posted under Linda's response was very appropriate:
I don't see a horse who is afraid of humans/people incl Linda, I see a horse who is so distracted and focused on everything else but the one holding the lead rope, all Linda is doing is trying to get the horse to pay attention to her instead of things in the distance and this is to avoid getting run over by the horse.
You can also see even though they have tried to cut it out, several times where Linda does reward the horse by taking off the pressure, standing still and by rewarding him with her voice as well.
Either you didn't watch out for this or you just couldn't read it, maybe try to watch it again with open mind and eyes.
Why don't all of you with such negative views and thoughts, film your own relationship with your horses and post them here? You get your chance to show that your horses let you touch them all over without fear or resistance, not step on your feet or walk into you when you are leading them, that they can trailer load without ropes, whips and force, can stand still when mounted without someone holding them, can be ridden without sharp bits, martingales or other straps and who are confident in you as their owner/s, doesn't run out of their stables as soon as you open the door, comes to you when you go out to catch them.
Looking forward to seeing them.
I posted two. Did you see them? My negative attitude towards many Parelli techniques affects my relationship with my horses how? As a matter of fact, if I jump and shout and wave my arms, my pinto only comes to me faster - he'll break from a walk to a trot. I have no video of that, as it's impossible to film while jumping and shouting and waving my arms.
Another of my horses was extremely difficult to catch when I first got him. While he still doesn't come running to me, the only times he ever even thinks of using avoidance methods is when he sees me worm another horse first.
I am not claiming perfection in anyone, including myself, however I just do not see the 'abuse' and 'ineffectiveness' Cathy is proclaiming in this (old) training video.
Friday, February 12, 2010
Horsenalities
Horsenality chartHow it works: you place a dot under each category/behaviour your horse falls under. The less extreme the behaviour, the closer the dot is placed to the centre of the circle. The goal in developing a horse is to create a horse who is less 'extreme', whose behaviours rate closest to the center of the circle as opposed to the outter rims of the circle.
I continuously hear it repeated that “one method cannot possibly work for all horses”. Well, that could not be more incorrect. While the approach must be tailored to the individual horse with focus on certain aspects above others, the actual method need not differ. It is what becoming a true horseman is all about – developing a method that truly does allow one to work with any horse they encounter. This does not mean that one has the exact same reaction toward each and every horse and its behaviour, but that one has the exact same state of mind/thinking and principles that they follow, that allow them to work with each horse as appropriate to that specific animal (that allow them to adapt their methods). For example, trust and respect is the foundation of every partnership and how you obtain it from each horse can be very similar, however there might be small differences of going about the same exercises that make a difference to each horse. In addition, one horse might require you to earn a higher level of respect, while another horse might require you to focus on earning trust. You can still teach both horses the exact same exercises and cues, however you might use softer or more assertive body language as appropriate to the specific horse, and focus more intently on the exercises that specifically help that horse.
At the root of all this is the horse’s “horsenality”. Amongst the snark against Natural Horsemanship, people seem to continuously state the utter uselessness of “horsenalities”. Yet it is such assessment of a horse that exactly allows the horseman to accurately evaluate a horse to adapt his/her methods to said horse – thus enabling horseman to work with any horse they come in contact with and bring said horse to its utmost potential. Most claim this should be “common sense”. Well, wake up. Common sense is not so common. Furthermore, handling horses and what to do might not be innate to some people and really, everyone has to learn to a certain degree, even if what they learn and then practice comes naturally to them. Understanding a horse’s way of being on a conscious level can aid a person in adapting their methods and learning how to approach that specific horse, on a conscious level. It can also help an individual to more fully understand why a horse is behaving the way it is and thus having the potential of eliminating frustration.
Parelli has developed an assessment of a horse’s “horsenality” based upon two observations: whether the horse is introverted or extroverted, and whether the horse is (at its foundation) right-brained or left-brained. This is not to say that a horse cannot have one horsenality but display tendencies of another. For example, a low level of confidence can result in a horse becoming introverted as it reverts to its natural survival instincts – a non-confident horse is going to lack curiosity, which might be in its best interests for its survival. A horse who has given up the fight (due to a forceful rider/etc) might become introverted rather than acting extroverted. Also, being right-brained and instinctive can also benefit a horse greater than being left-brained and thinking a situation through at first (at times) – flight might be a better option than standing and thinking through what to do when a lion is staring you in the face.
Generally, the extroverted horse is a horse who wants to move his feet, whereas the introverted horse would rather move its mind and emotions. Right-brained horses require you to earn their trust in yourself and in your leadership, whereas Left-brained horses are more apt to challenge your authority and leadership – they are dominant (pushing/biting things, etc). RB reactions and horses are instinctive and not thinking, whereas LB reactions and horses are presented with a lot of forethought. You can determine whether a horse is Introverted or Extroverted and LB or RB by evaluating three aspects:
At the root of all this is the horse’s “horsenality”. Amongst the snark against Natural Horsemanship, people seem to continuously state the utter uselessness of “horsenalities”. Yet it is such assessment of a horse that exactly allows the horseman to accurately evaluate a horse to adapt his/her methods to said horse – thus enabling horseman to work with any horse they come in contact with and bring said horse to its utmost potential. Most claim this should be “common sense”. Well, wake up. Common sense is not so common. Furthermore, handling horses and what to do might not be innate to some people and really, everyone has to learn to a certain degree, even if what they learn and then practice comes naturally to them. Understanding a horse’s way of being on a conscious level can aid a person in adapting their methods and learning how to approach that specific horse, on a conscious level. It can also help an individual to more fully understand why a horse is behaving the way it is and thus having the potential of eliminating frustration.
Parelli has developed an assessment of a horse’s “horsenality” based upon two observations: whether the horse is introverted or extroverted, and whether the horse is (at its foundation) right-brained or left-brained. This is not to say that a horse cannot have one horsenality but display tendencies of another. For example, a low level of confidence can result in a horse becoming introverted as it reverts to its natural survival instincts – a non-confident horse is going to lack curiosity, which might be in its best interests for its survival. A horse who has given up the fight (due to a forceful rider/etc) might become introverted rather than acting extroverted. Also, being right-brained and instinctive can also benefit a horse greater than being left-brained and thinking a situation through at first (at times) – flight might be a better option than standing and thinking through what to do when a lion is staring you in the face.
Generally, the extroverted horse is a horse who wants to move his feet, whereas the introverted horse would rather move its mind and emotions. Right-brained horses require you to earn their trust in yourself and in your leadership, whereas Left-brained horses are more apt to challenge your authority and leadership – they are dominant (pushing/biting things, etc). RB reactions and horses are instinctive and not thinking, whereas LB reactions and horses are presented with a lot of forethought. You can determine whether a horse is Introverted or Extroverted and LB or RB by evaluating three aspects:
1. Speed of feet – the horse who is constantly in motion and moving its feet is Extroverted, whereas the Introvert prefers to move his mind and keep his feet relatively still.
2. Respect versus trust – the horse who requires its handler to earn a greater amount of respect is the LB, whereas the RB is going to require its person to focus more on earning its trust to balance the partnership.
3. Afraid versus Pushy/Dominant – the Extrovert is typically pushy, dominant, and bold, whereas the Introvert is more apt to be afraid.
The following are the four Parelli horsenalities and how one would address one versus the other, and why it makes a difference:
RBI (Right-brain Introvert)
The RBI is often recognizable by its stance – it will stand with all four feet underneath him (ready to propel him forward) and his ears flicked back as he keeps an “eye” on what might be occurring behind him. It is often easy to move their front end around, but more difficult to move the hind end around; this is because a horse’s power is derived from its hind end, so he is not going to want said hind end to be disengaged or otherwise compromised, should he find it necessary to flee. He will be defensive through his hind; you may even find it difficult to pick up his feet, particularly his hinds. Because they are RB, these horses have a tendency to react first and think later. The Introvert aspect of them results in their cooping up their emotions – they keep everything inside. This is why they will often pause at a request – not because they are being rebellious, but because they have to get past their emotions for a moment so as to think the situation through and decide how to react. If they are pushed and are not allowed the time to think, boom, their emotions explode. The horse will either give up all fight or will explode “out of nowhere” after freezing and “running away inside”. Thus, one has to match their energy level to the horse in question – a RBI requires a person to go slow and to have the same very “soft” energy that they have. They are looking for leadership and so require a strong leadership and trust in their rider. Rather than walking up to these horses, have them instead come up to YOU. Back away from them as you face them, to draw them towards you; at liberty, they are more likely to approach you from behind than to parade up in front of you. Do not walk up to their heads – walk up to their shoulders; doing so allows them to then turn their heads and touch YOU rather than vice versa. Directing them to touch various “scary objects” and leading them through obstacles (and then directing them to do it themselves) really develops their confidence and thus their curiosity.
LBI (Left-brain Introvert)
These are the horses most apt to buck in resistance and are the most likely to be pushy and labeled as lazy because they refuse to move forward (especially under force). They are likely to use their nose as a sort of weapon – whether it be to push their handler over or to nip at their pockets as they demand treats. LB horses are always getting into things and LBI’s specifically are very happy to stand a distance from you with an insolent look on their face. You will usually find it more difficult to push their front end around than their hind, since horses dominate through their front end. These horses cannot be pushed or forced – at their worst, they will either retaliate or will simply shut down, which is why it is vital to EARN their respect so that they WANT to do what you ask. In addition, they are very rest and food motivated. They require a great deal of assertiveness and will challenge your authority at anything (even picking up their feet), but often also demand that their rider be fair. With a LBI in particular, one definitely wants to match their energy level – act as if they are going too fast and you want them to slow down (even if they are simply plodding - the power of reverse psychology)!! Reward the slightest try with rest and they will give you more. Same as with the RBI, it pays to have these horses come to you and to approach their shoulder versus their head. These horses are also more difficult to have approach you though, as they are very independent and confident alone (I've spotted my LBI out grazing at pasture in the middle of some of the worst blizzards, content by himself, whilst everyone else huddles together in the shelter).
LBE
These guys LOVE to move their feet, play with various objects, and move their minds. With an extreme LBE, you might have a lot of trouble slowing them down; allow them to move forward a little, then stop and rest, gradually increasing the time and speed of forward motion but stopping them before they get worked up and take off. They bore easily and so require mental stimulation – you always have to be one step ahead of them in developing exercises that keep their minds busy. They are also very dominant and since they love to move their feet, can be apt to getting into trouble under-saddle – they are very “in your face” and extroverted! On the ground, it might be difficult to move their front ends around and under-saddle, it can be difficult to motivate them (rest! mental stimulation!). They require a rider to earn a great deal of respect as well. LBE’s can be quite insolent in the things they do as well and will challenge your authority or retaliate if they perceive you to be unfair. Since they are very confident, like the LBI they are difficult to create “draw” in – that is to say, it can be difficult to have them approach you and stick with you at liberty since they are sufficiently confident to be off on their own. If they feel you are providing insufficient leadership, they will take the leadership “into their own hooves”.
RBE
The RBE is a horse who requires strong leadership, as he possesses much of the same qualities as the RBI, except he is obviously an Extrovert, versus being an Introvert. This horse can also be dominant and pushy, particularly through his front end, like the LBE. He is naturally not as confident as an LBE though and is more afraid than bold. Much like the RBI, barn sourness can be an issue if you are presenting insufficient leadership – if they do not feel you can ensure their survival, they will ensure it themselves by returning to the protection of the herd at home! Their first instinct is to react rather than think, so they need to be taught to be “calmer, braver, smarter” and to rely upon your leadership for direction (which must be earned). If punished, this horse is more apt to develop distrust and to become fearful. Since he feels an innate need to move his feet, he will exert a great deal of energy to flight.
As a side note, as one develops a horse, while they still maintain their “base horsenality”, the horse will become balanced and better rounded – they will become a less extreme version of their horsenality. For example, a Right-brain Introvert at its extreme might never be curious, tucking its emotions away inside, and always prone to explosion if pushed the slightest. As the horse is developed and its emotions “balanced” however, the same horse can develop confidence and thus curiosity (become more extroverted and thus more “centered”), and be less prone to explosion and more prone to trusting your leadership and thinking a situation through. If you can, imagine a scale, where Extrovert and Introvert exist at opposite ends of the scale. The same can be done with RB and LB. Your job as a horseman is to “center” a horse so that it, when fully developed, sits as close to the center of the scale as possible – not overly Extrovert nor Introvert, and not overly instinctive but also not overly “thinking”.
So as one can see, though much of this is innate to many individuals who have been around horses for years, there is also much room for conscious adaptation of one’s methods. Also, it is important to understand why a horse is behaving in a certain fashion, so as to properly and efficiently address the behavior in question. For example, I am going to deal with our RBI kicking differently than I would our LBI. Our RBI kicked towards me once upon a time when I became to focused on picking up his feet – he was giving me all the signs that I was pushing him (he had done well already, but I wanted “better”) and when I ignored the signs (his becoming more and more introverted), he finally kicked at me. Due to his abusive past, he was afraid and had insufficient trust in me – when I, a predator, pushed the issue, he finally resorted to kicking to get me away from his hind end (as a RB, he was simply being defensive through his hind end – he felt it crucial to his survival to keep his hind feet firmly planted on the ground). Rather than reacting and punishing him (which would only have served to create more distrust), I let the issue go. I apologized profusely to him and left it for another day, instead rubbing him all over until he relaxed. Instead, I work on it bit by bit, moving slowly, until he is giving me all four feet. The slower you go, the faster your progress and taking such a route can actually allow for very quick progression. Our LBI, however, used to kick (among other things) as a youngster. Punishing him would only have created resistance and retaliation (actually, I can say this through experience, since I handled it “traditionally” at the time and did attempt to punish him). Instead, I later learned to ignore the kick and instead earn a greater level of respect from him overall. As soon as his respect in general for me increased, the kicking out (and other such “qualities”) evaporated – they had been a manifestation of his overall lack of respect and dominant behavior towards me. With the RBI however I would focus on earning his trust at the time (then perhaps he would allow me to successfully pick up his hinds), whereas with the LBI if he were to do the same today, I would make him move his feet and work hard for a minute or two before asking again. This is the importance of horsenalities, or just understanding how and why your horse behaves the way he does. Without understanding your horse, one cannot effectively communicate and address him. Of course actual horsenalities (as they pertain to Parelli’s system) are not necessary for this; many people learn how to understand and read horses without Parelli’s direct “horsenalities”. Pat has simply developed a wonderful easy to understand (and refer to) system to help the average horse person. I often refer back to the horsenalities themselves because I find knowing a horse’s horsenality allows me to understand a horse very well and thus communicate to it better than I would otherwise; it is simply another tool that helps!
Friday, November 27, 2009
Helmet use
This is a follow-up on the earlier blog I wrote, in response to Cathy’s attack on the Parelli’s and what she and her sheep perceived to be the Parelli’s view on helmets. The following is an email I received from the savvy team in response to my query as to their position on helmets:
Thank you very much for your email. We understand your concern about safety and helmets and we are grateful that you took the time to email us so we can better address the issue. Our goal at Parelli Natural Horsemanship is to make the world a better place for horses and humans, and a critical component of that goal is safety. We support any protective gear - including helmets - that gives the rider a safer experience, and we require children under the age of 18 and recommend beginners wear helmets no matter the circumstances. We encourage each rider to thoroughly evaluate their situation, enroll in a training program and research and consider all available protective gear and safety procedures.
Thank you for your support.
Sincerely, Parelli Natural Horsemanship
Savvy team
So there you have it folks, the Parelli’s aren’t actually out to kill children. I know, surprising – I am sure.
Personally, though I do fully support the use of helmets (and other protective gear, such as vests), I recognise that the decision of whether to wear or not to wear a helmet is a personal decision; I never look down on an individual for not wearing a helmet (heck, most of time I just do not even notice). Each individual needs to weigh out the risks appropriated to not wearing a helmet and decide what they are comfortable with according to their beliefs and values, their horse, their horse's level, their riding level, etc. On one side of the coin, you can say: what does it hurt, so you had might as well wear a helmet - better safe than sorry. On the other side, I believe that you can also go too far. Pony Club requires (or at least some of my clubs did - the ones I can recall) their students to wear helmets even when the child is on the ground around their horse. Where do we stop - at bubble wrap?? Yet again though, kids + horses = maybe it is best to wear a helmet at all times, even on the ground. I believe that all kids should wear helmets at least while on a horse - our kids will for certain. However once again, it is still a personal decision (even if it be a parent/guardian).
Thank you very much for your email. We understand your concern about safety and helmets and we are grateful that you took the time to email us so we can better address the issue. Our goal at Parelli Natural Horsemanship is to make the world a better place for horses and humans, and a critical component of that goal is safety. We support any protective gear - including helmets - that gives the rider a safer experience, and we require children under the age of 18 and recommend beginners wear helmets no matter the circumstances. We encourage each rider to thoroughly evaluate their situation, enroll in a training program and research and consider all available protective gear and safety procedures.
Thank you for your support.
Sincerely, Parelli Natural Horsemanship
Savvy team
So there you have it folks, the Parelli’s aren’t actually out to kill children. I know, surprising – I am sure.
Personally, though I do fully support the use of helmets (and other protective gear, such as vests), I recognise that the decision of whether to wear or not to wear a helmet is a personal decision; I never look down on an individual for not wearing a helmet (heck, most of time I just do not even notice). Each individual needs to weigh out the risks appropriated to not wearing a helmet and decide what they are comfortable with according to their beliefs and values, their horse, their horse's level, their riding level, etc. On one side of the coin, you can say: what does it hurt, so you had might as well wear a helmet - better safe than sorry. On the other side, I believe that you can also go too far. Pony Club requires (or at least some of my clubs did - the ones I can recall) their students to wear helmets even when the child is on the ground around their horse. Where do we stop - at bubble wrap?? Yet again though, kids + horses = maybe it is best to wear a helmet at all times, even on the ground. I believe that all kids should wear helmets at least while on a horse - our kids will for certain. However once again, it is still a personal decision (even if it be a parent/guardian).
Thursday, October 15, 2009
Humouring your horse
I got thinking a few days ago, after being frustrated at one of our Thoroughbreds for wanting things his way, for being so independent – what is it that makes me think that things have to be my way? Why my way and not his? Because I pay board on him? Because he’s “mine”, because some money changed hands? What’s he care? It really hit me today that he has no reason to want to, or have to, do things my way all the time. What gives me the right to impose my will on him? He’s a living, breathing, thinking being too, with his own ideas and wants and needs. It really impressed upon me that I really have to earn the right to ask him to do what I want, the right to be his leader.
Someone commented a couple weeks ago, after a particular blog I wrote, that I might allow my horses to “dictate” what we do. I’ve thought about it since, while working with our horses, because there have been times recently where I’ve worked in such a way with our horses where someone could misinterpret that I am allowing our horses to have all the control. Some examples:
I couldn’t get our newest herd member, a formerly abused Paint, to work in sync with me – he was fearful, wanted nothing to do with me, and was intent on leaving, particularly while playing the circling game. So instead we played the circling game where he wanted to – close to one of the barns he wanted to walk through to return to his buddies and grazing in the pasture. Once I got him working with me though, I took him back to where I wanted to play, away from the barn and in an open space (so no fences to help us out). I compromised a bit, causing him to willingly compromise for me only shortly later.
The Warmblood mare I am currently working often loses focus and is not as attentive to learning when asked to work in the outdoor ring. My compromise is therefore that we learn in the indoor arena, where she has greater ability to focus, learn and succeed, then take what we’ve learned outside. Work with what she can give (inside) initially, then increase the challenge when she is ready by asking her to then focus and learn outside.
One of our Thoroughbreds would pull back and paw when tied, working himself into a lather and becoming increasingly anxious. So I stopped tying him - for awhile. I worked hard at teaching him to release better to pressure and to be better collected emotionally and mentally - to be a calmer, braver, smarter horse. With prior and proper preparation, I then was able to resume - this time successfully (ie, no pulling back or pawing) - tying him.
During my liberty groundwork with our Quarab, I was trying to get him to do a specific task – instead, he gave me something else. He side-passed beautifully for me down a fence – at liberty. Hey, not what I was asking for, but I'll take it! I changed my body language appropriately and we side-passed in either direction down the fence. Now that we had the side-pass down, I re-asked him for the original task, keeping in mind the body language he had understood to mean “side-pass”, and making sure to communicate more clearly. It worked, and he gave me the double-spin I had originally been looking for.
I guess you can call it what you want, but I do allow my horses to have a say in what we do – it’s a part-ner-ship, after all. If I cater to them a bit sometimes, they are more willing to cater to me. Getting a horse to do what you want, willingly, is (relatively) easy. Establishing a work ethic in a horse who does not have one is even (relatively) easy. Getting a horse to do what you want, with exuberance, is harder and is the ultimate goal in my program. As Jonathan Field says, "take all the ropes off your horse and you know what you have". I should be able to take all the ropes off my horse and have him continue working with me in partnership - happily. He should actively seek me out. This takes work to accomplish however, and often involves some compromise as you increasingly earn the right to ask whatever you can dream up, of your horse.
Liberty work allows for expression from the horse – it’s the ultimate level of partnership. Your horse has to want to work with you, else, with no ropes to hold him in place, he is just going to leave. So you learn to work with your horse, allowing him to have a say in what you do as well, to express himself. The more you work with him, the more he works with you. Like Parelli says “you do a bit of what your horse wants, maybe he’ll want to do a bit of what you want”. Take what your horse gives you, work with him in a manner where he wants to offer up different things to you, then take what’s given and mold it. Pretty soon, you can ask your horse anything, anytime, and he will give it to you willingly.
Do I allow my horses to dictate everything? No, there are boundaries. There are times where a horse must be pushed, where he needs to be firmly guided and shown he can and should do what you're asking. Same as teaching a person - there are times to push a student and there are times to back off and return to that task later. You also need to make it fun to that student, which might include asking them what they want to work on today or what they want to do just for fun! If a particular horse really doesn’t want to be ridden and is excessively difficult or resistant, I’m going to a) respect their wishes and b) ensure my safety by not swinging my leg over. They've already made it clear to me on the ground, why would I ignore their wants and swing my leg over anyway? Doing so could cause them to escalate. If a horse is acting dangerous under-saddle, yes, I am likely going to get off. I don’t like getting hurt, especially if it is pointless to do so, if I can accomplish the same from a safer point (on the ground). Why would you get on a horse, or continue riding a horse, that is clearly not giving you permission to be on their back, who is telling you “no”?! Its 1,200lbs of pure muscle! Instead, I prefer to work with a horse in such a way that it wants to be ridden, to the point where, eventually, he never says “no”, and instead he always says “pick me, pick me!” when I go out to catch a horse to ride. If you become too frustrated with a horse because they won’t do what you want (for whatever reason), walk away – dealing with a horse while frustrated is inexcusable, we have to have the discipline to either not get frustrated in the first place (by arming ourselves with knowledge – but we’re human, so there are times where we will be frustrated), or to walk away and re-evaluate what we’re asking, how we’re asking it, etc. If it takes working with a horse in a particular area to get them to work with me, I am going to do it, so that I can then take that partnership we’ve built to ask that horse to now work where I want to. As in any relationship, there is a lot of give and take. It is not that a horse should "get their way” permanently, but you can back off a bit, better prepare them for what you are expecting of them (set them up for success), then eventually re-ask at a better time. This way their dignity is preserved and they want to work with you... respect is offered both ways.
Some won't agree with my take on training, some prefer a dictatorship or some variation thereof or between - so take my advice or leave it, but consider it. Personally, I don’t feel it should be all about us – this is another living, breathing, animal that we’re expecting to work with us, one we often rely upon and one whom we often also place at risk… shouldn’t it be about them too? I have a great respect for my horses – their dignity, their wants, their needs – are paramount to me. Wouldn't you do the same in a human relationship, with your husband or wife? Why would your horse be any different?
On a related (but seemingly not) note, check out the Parelli Liberty (Beyond the Round Pen) and Collection DVD’s – they were inspiring and really taught me a lot. They are what really got me thinking further on the above and inspired me to write this blog post.
Someone commented a couple weeks ago, after a particular blog I wrote, that I might allow my horses to “dictate” what we do. I’ve thought about it since, while working with our horses, because there have been times recently where I’ve worked in such a way with our horses where someone could misinterpret that I am allowing our horses to have all the control. Some examples:
I couldn’t get our newest herd member, a formerly abused Paint, to work in sync with me – he was fearful, wanted nothing to do with me, and was intent on leaving, particularly while playing the circling game. So instead we played the circling game where he wanted to – close to one of the barns he wanted to walk through to return to his buddies and grazing in the pasture. Once I got him working with me though, I took him back to where I wanted to play, away from the barn and in an open space (so no fences to help us out). I compromised a bit, causing him to willingly compromise for me only shortly later.
The Warmblood mare I am currently working often loses focus and is not as attentive to learning when asked to work in the outdoor ring. My compromise is therefore that we learn in the indoor arena, where she has greater ability to focus, learn and succeed, then take what we’ve learned outside. Work with what she can give (inside) initially, then increase the challenge when she is ready by asking her to then focus and learn outside.
One of our Thoroughbreds would pull back and paw when tied, working himself into a lather and becoming increasingly anxious. So I stopped tying him - for awhile. I worked hard at teaching him to release better to pressure and to be better collected emotionally and mentally - to be a calmer, braver, smarter horse. With prior and proper preparation, I then was able to resume - this time successfully (ie, no pulling back or pawing) - tying him.
During my liberty groundwork with our Quarab, I was trying to get him to do a specific task – instead, he gave me something else. He side-passed beautifully for me down a fence – at liberty. Hey, not what I was asking for, but I'll take it! I changed my body language appropriately and we side-passed in either direction down the fence. Now that we had the side-pass down, I re-asked him for the original task, keeping in mind the body language he had understood to mean “side-pass”, and making sure to communicate more clearly. It worked, and he gave me the double-spin I had originally been looking for.
I guess you can call it what you want, but I do allow my horses to have a say in what we do – it’s a part-ner-ship, after all. If I cater to them a bit sometimes, they are more willing to cater to me. Getting a horse to do what you want, willingly, is (relatively) easy. Establishing a work ethic in a horse who does not have one is even (relatively) easy. Getting a horse to do what you want, with exuberance, is harder and is the ultimate goal in my program. As Jonathan Field says, "take all the ropes off your horse and you know what you have". I should be able to take all the ropes off my horse and have him continue working with me in partnership - happily. He should actively seek me out. This takes work to accomplish however, and often involves some compromise as you increasingly earn the right to ask whatever you can dream up, of your horse.
Liberty work allows for expression from the horse – it’s the ultimate level of partnership. Your horse has to want to work with you, else, with no ropes to hold him in place, he is just going to leave. So you learn to work with your horse, allowing him to have a say in what you do as well, to express himself. The more you work with him, the more he works with you. Like Parelli says “you do a bit of what your horse wants, maybe he’ll want to do a bit of what you want”. Take what your horse gives you, work with him in a manner where he wants to offer up different things to you, then take what’s given and mold it. Pretty soon, you can ask your horse anything, anytime, and he will give it to you willingly.
Do I allow my horses to dictate everything? No, there are boundaries. There are times where a horse must be pushed, where he needs to be firmly guided and shown he can and should do what you're asking. Same as teaching a person - there are times to push a student and there are times to back off and return to that task later. You also need to make it fun to that student, which might include asking them what they want to work on today or what they want to do just for fun! If a particular horse really doesn’t want to be ridden and is excessively difficult or resistant, I’m going to a) respect their wishes and b) ensure my safety by not swinging my leg over. They've already made it clear to me on the ground, why would I ignore their wants and swing my leg over anyway? Doing so could cause them to escalate. If a horse is acting dangerous under-saddle, yes, I am likely going to get off. I don’t like getting hurt, especially if it is pointless to do so, if I can accomplish the same from a safer point (on the ground). Why would you get on a horse, or continue riding a horse, that is clearly not giving you permission to be on their back, who is telling you “no”?! Its 1,200lbs of pure muscle! Instead, I prefer to work with a horse in such a way that it wants to be ridden, to the point where, eventually, he never says “no”, and instead he always says “pick me, pick me!” when I go out to catch a horse to ride. If you become too frustrated with a horse because they won’t do what you want (for whatever reason), walk away – dealing with a horse while frustrated is inexcusable, we have to have the discipline to either not get frustrated in the first place (by arming ourselves with knowledge – but we’re human, so there are times where we will be frustrated), or to walk away and re-evaluate what we’re asking, how we’re asking it, etc. If it takes working with a horse in a particular area to get them to work with me, I am going to do it, so that I can then take that partnership we’ve built to ask that horse to now work where I want to. As in any relationship, there is a lot of give and take. It is not that a horse should "get their way” permanently, but you can back off a bit, better prepare them for what you are expecting of them (set them up for success), then eventually re-ask at a better time. This way their dignity is preserved and they want to work with you... respect is offered both ways.
Some won't agree with my take on training, some prefer a dictatorship or some variation thereof or between - so take my advice or leave it, but consider it. Personally, I don’t feel it should be all about us – this is another living, breathing, animal that we’re expecting to work with us, one we often rely upon and one whom we often also place at risk… shouldn’t it be about them too? I have a great respect for my horses – their dignity, their wants, their needs – are paramount to me. Wouldn't you do the same in a human relationship, with your husband or wife? Why would your horse be any different?
On a related (but seemingly not) note, check out the Parelli Liberty (Beyond the Round Pen) and Collection DVD’s – they were inspiring and really taught me a lot. They are what really got me thinking further on the above and inspired me to write this blog post.
Wednesday, October 7, 2009
NH applicable to the real world
One of the comments I hear from adversaries of Natural Horsemanship is that "it's great for groundwork but is not really practical for the real world". I have to be honest that I never understand what that is supposed to mean - how is a solid partnership with your horse not conducive to real world work like showing, or ranch work? I like being able to fully trust my horses because they fully trust my leadership, to be able to slow a horse with my seat rather than my hands (which should just be good horsemanship, really), and to have my horse working in full partnership with me, whether it be working cattle, doing dressage, or jumping. Using Natural Horsemanship-like thinking (which includes methods other than Parelli as well, including a lot of classical dressage, I find - etc) can enable a great working partnership that actually helps you excel in the real world. So to those who don't think Natural Horsemanship methods are practical in the show world, I give you (in addition to the O'Connors, Ian Miller, Karen Rohlf, and many other greats out there) the following exerpt from a recent Parelli e-news:
Parelli Trained Horses Win Big at the Missouri Fox Trotter World Show
Several Parelli students blew their own socks off last week with our Fox Trotters at the Missouri Fox Trotter World Show in Ava, Missouri. First up was showmanship, than came western pleasure. Horsemanship and reining were next. The Parelli patterns prepared their horses very well for these challenges. There were jumping classes and trail classes. One day was ranch horse day which included cutting, roping and working cow horse classes. They always remembered to put the horse first, occasionally scratching a class if their horse wasn’t mentally ready. By the end of the week they had accumulated 18 world champion titles, 26 Top 5 titles, and 5 top 10 titles! To top off our week, Nichole Copple riding Velvet, not only took home an amazing 13 world champion t itles, she was awarded the two highest youth titles that can be achieved. Nichole is the 2009 Youth Over-all Hi point World Grand Champion which included 13 classes. She also took home the Youth Ranch Horse World Grand Champion. Caitlyn Vaught with her horse Attu, came home with the Youth Ranch Horse World Grand Champion reserve. Caitlyn also came home with two world champion titles. So how old is Caitlyn? Just 9 years old!!! The Novice Hi-Point Championship went to Susan Engle on her horse Nova along with two world champion titles. Mindy Bertholdi came home with the Amateur Pleasure Hi-Point Reserve title. She and her horse Vegas are also the amateur reining World Champion. Hope Kohout and her horse Raffle were in the top 5’s and top 10’s. Tony and Jenny Vaught also showed in the open division for clients Lynne and Waland Burger and had a successful week as well. It was a wonderful time!
Point made :)
Parelli Trained Horses Win Big at the Missouri Fox Trotter World Show
Several Parelli students blew their own socks off last week with our Fox Trotters at the Missouri Fox Trotter World Show in Ava, Missouri. First up was showmanship, than came western pleasure. Horsemanship and reining were next. The Parelli patterns prepared their horses very well for these challenges. There were jumping classes and trail classes. One day was ranch horse day which included cutting, roping and working cow horse classes. They always remembered to put the horse first, occasionally scratching a class if their horse wasn’t mentally ready. By the end of the week they had accumulated 18 world champion titles, 26 Top 5 titles, and 5 top 10 titles! To top off our week, Nichole Copple riding Velvet, not only took home an amazing 13 world champion t itles, she was awarded the two highest youth titles that can be achieved. Nichole is the 2009 Youth Over-all Hi point World Grand Champion which included 13 classes. She also took home the Youth Ranch Horse World Grand Champion. Caitlyn Vaught with her horse Attu, came home with the Youth Ranch Horse World Grand Champion reserve. Caitlyn also came home with two world champion titles. So how old is Caitlyn? Just 9 years old!!! The Novice Hi-Point Championship went to Susan Engle on her horse Nova along with two world champion titles. Mindy Bertholdi came home with the Amateur Pleasure Hi-Point Reserve title. She and her horse Vegas are also the amateur reining World Champion. Hope Kohout and her horse Raffle were in the top 5’s and top 10’s. Tony and Jenny Vaught also showed in the open division for clients Lynne and Waland Burger and had a successful week as well. It was a wonderful time!
Point made :)
Thursday, September 24, 2009
Actually, you don't ride in Parelli
Honestly. We just don't ride (sarcasm intended).
*sigh* yet another ignorant post coming from Cathy over at FHOTD:
Well I guess they are safer if you never actually get on them!
This is a common misconception among some, that those who practice PNH don’t ride…which is absolutely ridiculous. Have any of these individuals ever been to a savvy conference?? Seen Pat ride Casper bridleless among mares? I have to say that my methods are primarily based upon the PNH system…and *gasp* I ride. Every. Day. I know, shocking, right?
Cathy’s ridiculous ignorance-filled comments in purple.
“Linda was jumping with no helmet”
So? Cathy, are you hoping to impose your riding beliefs on everyone else? Shouldn’t this (helmet use) be a personal choice? You yourself posted, in this very post “I do believe in freedom of choice for adult riders who are aware of the risks”. So what’s your problem?
Re: the Parelli’s response (as per Cathy’s blog):
Pat and Linda are not telling people not to wear a helmet, they are simply explaining their reasons for not doing so. They point out that you can still be injured despite wearing a helmet, and that their program is designed to address the root issues that often are cause for injury to the rider – an unsafe horse - rather than to bubble-wrap someone prior to throwing them on an unsafe horse. If you create a balanced partner, you significantly decrease the risk to yourself – moreso than a simple helmet (or vest, etc) would. Plain and simple.
“Seriously, you’re not this stupid, right? You can’t be. First of all, you seem to be arguing that ALL horse accidents are caused by bad behavior on the part of the horse.”
Cathy, are you actually reading any of what the Parelli’s say? Or is their message just washing over you because you’re so caught up in seeing through your own rose-coloured glasses?
Here is what the Parelli’s said that sparked Cathy’s comment above:
“Our program is intended to address the safety problem at its root – which is behavioral – rather than address the symptoms of it. Our message is about developing the relationship with the horse, and the savvy level of the rider, so that unsafe behavior is addressed long before the rider gets on the horse – rather than allowing the unsafe situations to continue to occur and hope that the helmet, body protector, etc, will protect us from the consequences.”
In language Cathy and her sheep can comprehend: the Parelli’s are NOT saying that ALL horse accidents occur due to bad behaviour on the part of the horse, but that their program is designed to prevent the accidents that are the result of inadequate savvy on the part of the rider and/or behavior issues (spooking, bucking, rearing, bolting, exploding, etc) on the part of the horse…which, we have to admit, are most accidents. Do people get hurt simply sitting on a horse? Sure! Do they get hurt in freak accidents? Yup. Can we eliminate a lot of accidents by educating our riders and developing our horses? Yes!
“Secondly, you seem to be arguing that there is some way to 100% cure bad behavior in a horse so that the horse will never misbehave again and therefore no accident will ever occur…It’s a living creature! It is going to have bad days! There is something out there that will scare it and you can NOT do ANY kind of training/desensitization that will 100% prevent that from happening.”
Comments such as this really broadcast your ignorance of the Parelli method, Cathy. Let’s deal with this point-by-point:
1. “There is some way to 100% cure bad behaviour in a horse so that it will never misbehave again and therefore no accident will ever occur”
First off, just to get it out of the way, there is always the potential for an accident, so no one can ever say that no accident will ever occur. I don’t think that is what the Parelli’s are saying either (I say that based on the email provided as well as what I have heard them say over the past 6 years I have stayed tuned into them).
Is there a way to 100% cure bad behaviour? Well, is there a way to have a harmonious partnership with your spouse? Your friends?
2. “it is going to have bad days!”
Yes, horses have bad days, just as people do! Fighting in a marriage is normal – but it is about how you fight, not that you fight. The same can be said for your partnership with your horse. Want to know if they’re having a bad day? Work with them – even just 5 minutes on your way in from the paddock – on the ground prior to a ride. You find out what side of the paddock your horse woke up on and work out any kinks – you re-focus them on you, re-cement your partnership with them (re-establish respect and trust), get them thinking rather than reacting, and work them into a better mood. Sometimes it takes me an hour to get a horse “balanced” through groundwork (rare), sometimes it takes me 2 minutes (particularly if I have been working with them for awhile). Sometimes I don’t ride a particular horse that day (rare)! It depends on where that horse is at in its development, it’s base horsenality, etc. If you sufficiently develop the horse and develop a partnership with them, bad behaviour IS eliminated. That’s what a part-ner-ship is all about. It involves efficient and flowing communication between both horse and rider so that any disagreements are worked out before they manifest as escalated “bad behaviour”.
3. "There is something out there that will scare it and you can NOT do ANY kind of training/desensitization that will 100% prevent that from happening.”
In addition, what people often deem “bad behaviour” (such as spooking) can also be the result of a horse’s lack of trust in their rider’s leadership – as you develop a partnership, one of the foundation blocks you construct is that of trust. Horses who are fully trusting in your leadership are not spooking (unless you are), because they’re trusting that where you ask them to place their feet is safe! My horses might ask me about certain scenarios, but if I say it’s ok, they accept that it is ok and continue on – yes, without spooking. The most “spook” I get from a higher level horse is a surprised body shiver. Also, as you teach a horse to think, they react less. PNH isn’t about training or desensitizing a horse to not spook, it is about developing the type of partnership between horse and rider to the point where the horse is following the rider’s direction and therefore not spooking because their rider is offering them solid direction and leadership.
“Or what if the horse has pain you haven’t discovered yet? Back soreness turns many a safe older packer into a bronc, sometimes with very little warning.”
Really?? Are you kidding??! Bucking without (or very little) warning due to back soreness? What have you been doing to your horses, Cathy? Horses don’t just explode for no reason due to back pain. They go through phases – unless maybe you typically ignore all their “quieter” prior warning signs, then yes, a horse might escalate his communication to bucking without “apparent” warning (only “not apparent” because you ignored it). The warning signs were there, you just didn’t see them.
“Ok, you heard it from the Parelli people. If you are not supposed to ride until your horse is “safe,” you are going to have a long wait because there is no way in the world to accomplish that! HORSES ARE NOT SAFE. They’re a thousand pound animal with a mind of their own.”
How would you know whether or not you will have a long wait, Cathy? Have you tried it? In my twenties, I already have a terrible back I am re-habbing, so now, more than ever, I am careful what horses I ride and when. I now am thankfully privy to a method at my fingertips that allows me to work with horses and develop a solid foundation from the ground up, before ever getting up into that saddle. I can work out all those kinks on the ground without jeopardizing my safety in the saddle. Why wouldn’t I do it? As a horse trainer, sometimes I admittedly do have to push the envelope a little and get on a horse before I feel they are completely safe, but thus far the preparation PNH has allowed me to do with horses has ensured that I can be safer than ever. Some examples of the “long wait” it took to get on a horse’s back?
Horse #1: Dutch Warmblood cross mare, previously abused – session #2
Horses #2/3/4: QH mares, unstarted – approximately one week
Horse #5: Percheron x TB mare, highly reactive and unstarted – approx. two weeks
Horse #6: QH gelding, unstarted and very untrusting of people – approx. two weeks
Of our own horses:
Experiences range from PNH enabling me to ride some of our horses in the first place, to continuing to ride them while doing the Parelli groundwork (and thus building a stronger foundation) simultaneously. Parelli Natural Horsemanship actually – surprise surprise – has a huge riding component. The new Patterns are about 50/50 groundwork and riding and can be worked on simultaneously.
Take the time it takes so it takes less time – Parelli.
Groundwork can create a strong foundation and if it means staying off a horse’s back for a little bit to ensure that that horse is later safe enough to ride, that is what I am going to do! Safety first!
If horses are not safe, Cathy, we should perhaps be re-thinking riding them at all! Why can’t they be safe? As far as them having a mind of their own – yes! They do! Which is why you learn to work with that mind and to develop a partnership where a) they want to work with you and b) where communication is harmonious between horse and rider.
“By the way, you know what makes them safeR? ACTUALLY RIDING THEM AND WORKING THROUGH THEIR PROBLEMS AND FEARS.”
Cathy, do you honestly think that your methods, and that riding a horse is the ONLY way of working a horse through problems and fears? Personally, I find that most, if not all, problems between horse and rider are solvable on the ground first. Honestly. Then you take what you have on the ground, up into the saddle, for success and safety in the saddle! Knowing that there is another way, I sure as heck don’t want to work a horse through “problems and fears” in the saddle if I don’t have to and if my safety might be compromised! This is a 1,000lb animal – I’d rather NOT be on its back if it might explode in fear!!! Let’s work it out on the ground first, then progress to working under-saddle.
“…trying to argue that a rider ISN’T safer with a helmet…”
The Parelli’s are not arguing that a rider is not safer with a helmet, but that they might not necessarily be safer with a helmet (depending on the situation) and that there is a root issue to address that can do more for a rider than a helmet alone.
“…or that somehow good horse training can eliminate the need for any helmet…”
No, but it can reduce the risks to the point where some choose not to use a helmet.
“…completely IGNORING the part that rider skill/balance and just plain luck play in how accidents happen.”
“Our message is about developing the relationship with the horse, and the savvy level of the rider”. (Taken from the letter Cathy posted, from the Parelli’s.) Cathy, do you actually read what you post and write? The Parelli’s DO address rider skill and balance, and if you had any knowledge of their program, you would realize that they are ALL about the rider’s skill and balance. This isn’t a horse-training program so much as a people-training program. It is about developing both horse and rider, through proper horsemanship skills.
This isn’t about the Parelli’s advertising that people should not wear helmets. I will try to dig up an old email they sent out in their Savvy Newsletter that accurately portrays this. The Parelli’s do advocate for helmet use, but they also advocate for free will – it is up to you to weigh out the risks and decide whether or not to wear a helmet. PNH is a method that has been around for eons but that has been marketed by the Parelli’s and developed so the average person can develop a strong partnership with their horse and limit the risks we take with our horses.
Sometimes what people say just boggles my mind. If you don’t like a particular method, fine. But take the time to realize that you might not know all about that method, that you just might not fully understand it and how it works. Cathy, your ignorance of PNH is just as appalling as your closed mind – why would you comment on a method you obviously know so little about??! Furthermore, if you have all these qualms and questions, ask them of the professionals within the method itself!!! Simple? Makes sense to me – that way you find out the real answers rather than surmising what they could be saying based on your own faulty interpretation.
I recently emailed the Savvy Team concerning helmets and will post their response shortly.
Lastly, the following comment from FHOTD (in response to other comments posted there), by "Bianca", I found hit it spot on:
Okay, I have got to speak up because this is just ridiculous for intelligent people like you all to be judging a program you obviously are not informed about. We’re grown-ups right? Let’s be reasonable and rational. Please hear me through. I have to first say that I believe in safety first and I wear a helmet most of the time.
First things first, Caton Parelli (Pat Parelli’s son) did NOT get “kicked in the head” by a horse!! He was born with hydrocephaly and had a stroke very young. Please check your information before you go using it as evidence against something. If you want to check on this yourself, see Pat’s autobiography “Raise Your Hand if You Love Horses” for the full story about Caton (and you can always get it from the library). And for the record, Caton Parelli is now showing in cutting, riding bridleless and bareback and doing extremely well. All this when doctors said he would never walk or talk. Now if that isn’t determination on the part of a father and son, I don’t know what is. Pat Parelli is an amazing father and has helped Caton go above and beyond all odds.
Okay, I feel that you may have mistook the point of the email. If you go back and read the email from the Parelli’s you will see that when they refer to “behavior” they are referring to both the behavior of the horse and person, with the emphasis on the person. In your argument against the first paragraph you state several situations in which it was the mistake of the person where they got into an accident (i.e., not tightening the girth, dismounting incorrectly). The email states “developing the relationship with the horse, and the savvy level of the rider”. The Parelli’s entire first level focuses on safety and teaching the person savvy (savvy = know-how) in understanding and handling their horse and what to do in “uh oh!” moments. They teach “flight checks” so we know whether the horse is safe to get on and they teach how to be constantly cognizant of the horse’s state of mind the entire time we are with them (whether riding or playing on the ground). We practice, practice, and practice getting off in an emergency!
The comment you made that the Parelli’s completely ignore balance is said out of misunderstanding of the program. If I may, I would like to take this opportunity to educate you a little. Linda Parelli has come up with amazing and wonderful concepts of fluidity with horses: striving to physically become “one with the horse”. She goes through the biomechanics of the horse and the rider and what happens in the horse’s body when you are sitting a certain way. This is taught through simulations, explanations, and experiments. When I first started riding years ago I had a natural, balanced seat. Then, to my demise, I took jumping lessons (now I’m not bashing jumping, just the way I was taught) from an instructor that taught me to sit on my croch and bow in my lower back. This brought on a lot of back pain and I felt VERY insecure; like a top just barely balancing on the saddle (which is what happens with you sit even the tiniest bit forwards). Because of the pain this brought on, I thought I couldn’t ride anymore because that was the “proper” way to sit. Now that I’ve learned from Linda Parelli’s concepts and practiced them with simulations before getting on a horse and practiced them on the horse, my natural seat is back and I have security and balance again! And best of all, I do not have any pain when riding!! I can ride bareback and sit a trot easily because I am in tune with the horse’s movement.
Now I’m not saying you shouldn’t wear a helmet and neither did the Parelli’s. They have no qualms about people wearing helmets and they tell their students that it is up to them whether they want to wear a helmet or not. What Parelli is saying is that no one should use a helmet or any other safety device as an excuse for poor savvy and a poor relationship with a horse. Wouldn’t you agree?
Accidents happen. I know, I’ve been there. But I have not had a major accident since starting the Parelli program 5 years ago. And when I had a minor incident it was because I made a misjudgement and I take full responsibility for that. I then say “whoops” and go back and learn more, analyze the situation, and think how I can better prepare for a situation next time. And believe me, I have avoided many situations in which I could have been seriously hurt because I read the horse and adjusted the situation.
And as for the comment about having extraordinary numbers of accidents in the Parelli world, that is also said out of lack of information. I have a wealth of Parelli friends and I RARELY, if ever, hear of even a minor accident. And if I do hear of an accident it is because of some freak incidence where no one was at fault and usually the person was wearing a helmet anyhow.
If you don’t “like” the Parelli’s that is fine, but do not judge their principals and techniques if you don’t even know what they are. As for the comment on the incidence of someone “beating their horse over the head” I’m sure that was not a true Parelli person and I would have had to see the incidence first-hand. A stick, bit, rope, halter, or anything else (even a bucket!) can be used for ill in the wrong hands. Putting an orange stick in someone’s hands doesn’t make them a Parelli person and doesn’t make them beat their horse with it. Sadly, I have met people who “say” they “do Parelli” but in fact they do not. Lesson there: take everything with a grain of salt.
And as another educational opportunity, the carrot stick is not something magical, it is an extension of one’s arm…that’s all it is. If you’d like more information on how it is used, I’m more than happy to explain that further. Please, if you don’t know what something is used for, please don’t make fun of it. If I didn’t know what eye glasses or a bluetooth headset or an arm prosthesis were used for, would it be intelligent or polite to make fun of someone who used it?
In closing, if you don’t like the Parelli program, that is fine. We’re not shooving the program down your throats. It’s a resource here if you ever want it. Those of us who are in the program are very happily living our dreams safely and progressively. If you are too, that’s great! More power to ya! You do your thing and we’ll do ours, how about a truce?
Blessings and savvy on!
~”Bianca”
*sigh* yet another ignorant post coming from Cathy over at FHOTD:
Well I guess they are safer if you never actually get on them!
This is a common misconception among some, that those who practice PNH don’t ride…which is absolutely ridiculous. Have any of these individuals ever been to a savvy conference?? Seen Pat ride Casper bridleless among mares? I have to say that my methods are primarily based upon the PNH system…and *gasp* I ride. Every. Day. I know, shocking, right?
Cathy’s ridiculous ignorance-filled comments in purple.
“Linda was jumping with no helmet”
So? Cathy, are you hoping to impose your riding beliefs on everyone else? Shouldn’t this (helmet use) be a personal choice? You yourself posted, in this very post “I do believe in freedom of choice for adult riders who are aware of the risks”. So what’s your problem?
Re: the Parelli’s response (as per Cathy’s blog):
Pat and Linda are not telling people not to wear a helmet, they are simply explaining their reasons for not doing so. They point out that you can still be injured despite wearing a helmet, and that their program is designed to address the root issues that often are cause for injury to the rider – an unsafe horse - rather than to bubble-wrap someone prior to throwing them on an unsafe horse. If you create a balanced partner, you significantly decrease the risk to yourself – moreso than a simple helmet (or vest, etc) would. Plain and simple.
“Seriously, you’re not this stupid, right? You can’t be. First of all, you seem to be arguing that ALL horse accidents are caused by bad behavior on the part of the horse.”
Cathy, are you actually reading any of what the Parelli’s say? Or is their message just washing over you because you’re so caught up in seeing through your own rose-coloured glasses?
Here is what the Parelli’s said that sparked Cathy’s comment above:
“Our program is intended to address the safety problem at its root – which is behavioral – rather than address the symptoms of it. Our message is about developing the relationship with the horse, and the savvy level of the rider, so that unsafe behavior is addressed long before the rider gets on the horse – rather than allowing the unsafe situations to continue to occur and hope that the helmet, body protector, etc, will protect us from the consequences.”
In language Cathy and her sheep can comprehend: the Parelli’s are NOT saying that ALL horse accidents occur due to bad behaviour on the part of the horse, but that their program is designed to prevent the accidents that are the result of inadequate savvy on the part of the rider and/or behavior issues (spooking, bucking, rearing, bolting, exploding, etc) on the part of the horse…which, we have to admit, are most accidents. Do people get hurt simply sitting on a horse? Sure! Do they get hurt in freak accidents? Yup. Can we eliminate a lot of accidents by educating our riders and developing our horses? Yes!
“Secondly, you seem to be arguing that there is some way to 100% cure bad behavior in a horse so that the horse will never misbehave again and therefore no accident will ever occur…It’s a living creature! It is going to have bad days! There is something out there that will scare it and you can NOT do ANY kind of training/desensitization that will 100% prevent that from happening.”
Comments such as this really broadcast your ignorance of the Parelli method, Cathy. Let’s deal with this point-by-point:
1. “There is some way to 100% cure bad behaviour in a horse so that it will never misbehave again and therefore no accident will ever occur”
First off, just to get it out of the way, there is always the potential for an accident, so no one can ever say that no accident will ever occur. I don’t think that is what the Parelli’s are saying either (I say that based on the email provided as well as what I have heard them say over the past 6 years I have stayed tuned into them).
Is there a way to 100% cure bad behaviour? Well, is there a way to have a harmonious partnership with your spouse? Your friends?
2. “it is going to have bad days!”
Yes, horses have bad days, just as people do! Fighting in a marriage is normal – but it is about how you fight, not that you fight. The same can be said for your partnership with your horse. Want to know if they’re having a bad day? Work with them – even just 5 minutes on your way in from the paddock – on the ground prior to a ride. You find out what side of the paddock your horse woke up on and work out any kinks – you re-focus them on you, re-cement your partnership with them (re-establish respect and trust), get them thinking rather than reacting, and work them into a better mood. Sometimes it takes me an hour to get a horse “balanced” through groundwork (rare), sometimes it takes me 2 minutes (particularly if I have been working with them for awhile). Sometimes I don’t ride a particular horse that day (rare)! It depends on where that horse is at in its development, it’s base horsenality, etc. If you sufficiently develop the horse and develop a partnership with them, bad behaviour IS eliminated. That’s what a part-ner-ship is all about. It involves efficient and flowing communication between both horse and rider so that any disagreements are worked out before they manifest as escalated “bad behaviour”.
3. "There is something out there that will scare it and you can NOT do ANY kind of training/desensitization that will 100% prevent that from happening.”
In addition, what people often deem “bad behaviour” (such as spooking) can also be the result of a horse’s lack of trust in their rider’s leadership – as you develop a partnership, one of the foundation blocks you construct is that of trust. Horses who are fully trusting in your leadership are not spooking (unless you are), because they’re trusting that where you ask them to place their feet is safe! My horses might ask me about certain scenarios, but if I say it’s ok, they accept that it is ok and continue on – yes, without spooking. The most “spook” I get from a higher level horse is a surprised body shiver. Also, as you teach a horse to think, they react less. PNH isn’t about training or desensitizing a horse to not spook, it is about developing the type of partnership between horse and rider to the point where the horse is following the rider’s direction and therefore not spooking because their rider is offering them solid direction and leadership.
“Or what if the horse has pain you haven’t discovered yet? Back soreness turns many a safe older packer into a bronc, sometimes with very little warning.”
Really?? Are you kidding??! Bucking without (or very little) warning due to back soreness? What have you been doing to your horses, Cathy? Horses don’t just explode for no reason due to back pain. They go through phases – unless maybe you typically ignore all their “quieter” prior warning signs, then yes, a horse might escalate his communication to bucking without “apparent” warning (only “not apparent” because you ignored it). The warning signs were there, you just didn’t see them.
“Ok, you heard it from the Parelli people. If you are not supposed to ride until your horse is “safe,” you are going to have a long wait because there is no way in the world to accomplish that! HORSES ARE NOT SAFE. They’re a thousand pound animal with a mind of their own.”
How would you know whether or not you will have a long wait, Cathy? Have you tried it? In my twenties, I already have a terrible back I am re-habbing, so now, more than ever, I am careful what horses I ride and when. I now am thankfully privy to a method at my fingertips that allows me to work with horses and develop a solid foundation from the ground up, before ever getting up into that saddle. I can work out all those kinks on the ground without jeopardizing my safety in the saddle. Why wouldn’t I do it? As a horse trainer, sometimes I admittedly do have to push the envelope a little and get on a horse before I feel they are completely safe, but thus far the preparation PNH has allowed me to do with horses has ensured that I can be safer than ever. Some examples of the “long wait” it took to get on a horse’s back?
Horse #1: Dutch Warmblood cross mare, previously abused – session #2
Horses #2/3/4: QH mares, unstarted – approximately one week
Horse #5: Percheron x TB mare, highly reactive and unstarted – approx. two weeks
Horse #6: QH gelding, unstarted and very untrusting of people – approx. two weeks
Of our own horses:
Experiences range from PNH enabling me to ride some of our horses in the first place, to continuing to ride them while doing the Parelli groundwork (and thus building a stronger foundation) simultaneously. Parelli Natural Horsemanship actually – surprise surprise – has a huge riding component. The new Patterns are about 50/50 groundwork and riding and can be worked on simultaneously.
Take the time it takes so it takes less time – Parelli.
Groundwork can create a strong foundation and if it means staying off a horse’s back for a little bit to ensure that that horse is later safe enough to ride, that is what I am going to do! Safety first!
If horses are not safe, Cathy, we should perhaps be re-thinking riding them at all! Why can’t they be safe? As far as them having a mind of their own – yes! They do! Which is why you learn to work with that mind and to develop a partnership where a) they want to work with you and b) where communication is harmonious between horse and rider.
“By the way, you know what makes them safeR? ACTUALLY RIDING THEM AND WORKING THROUGH THEIR PROBLEMS AND FEARS.”
Cathy, do you honestly think that your methods, and that riding a horse is the ONLY way of working a horse through problems and fears? Personally, I find that most, if not all, problems between horse and rider are solvable on the ground first. Honestly. Then you take what you have on the ground, up into the saddle, for success and safety in the saddle! Knowing that there is another way, I sure as heck don’t want to work a horse through “problems and fears” in the saddle if I don’t have to and if my safety might be compromised! This is a 1,000lb animal – I’d rather NOT be on its back if it might explode in fear!!! Let’s work it out on the ground first, then progress to working under-saddle.
“…trying to argue that a rider ISN’T safer with a helmet…”
The Parelli’s are not arguing that a rider is not safer with a helmet, but that they might not necessarily be safer with a helmet (depending on the situation) and that there is a root issue to address that can do more for a rider than a helmet alone.
“…or that somehow good horse training can eliminate the need for any helmet…”
No, but it can reduce the risks to the point where some choose not to use a helmet.
“…completely IGNORING the part that rider skill/balance and just plain luck play in how accidents happen.”
“Our message is about developing the relationship with the horse, and the savvy level of the rider”. (Taken from the letter Cathy posted, from the Parelli’s.) Cathy, do you actually read what you post and write? The Parelli’s DO address rider skill and balance, and if you had any knowledge of their program, you would realize that they are ALL about the rider’s skill and balance. This isn’t a horse-training program so much as a people-training program. It is about developing both horse and rider, through proper horsemanship skills.
This isn’t about the Parelli’s advertising that people should not wear helmets. I will try to dig up an old email they sent out in their Savvy Newsletter that accurately portrays this. The Parelli’s do advocate for helmet use, but they also advocate for free will – it is up to you to weigh out the risks and decide whether or not to wear a helmet. PNH is a method that has been around for eons but that has been marketed by the Parelli’s and developed so the average person can develop a strong partnership with their horse and limit the risks we take with our horses.
Sometimes what people say just boggles my mind. If you don’t like a particular method, fine. But take the time to realize that you might not know all about that method, that you just might not fully understand it and how it works. Cathy, your ignorance of PNH is just as appalling as your closed mind – why would you comment on a method you obviously know so little about??! Furthermore, if you have all these qualms and questions, ask them of the professionals within the method itself!!! Simple? Makes sense to me – that way you find out the real answers rather than surmising what they could be saying based on your own faulty interpretation.
I recently emailed the Savvy Team concerning helmets and will post their response shortly.
Lastly, the following comment from FHOTD (in response to other comments posted there), by "Bianca", I found hit it spot on:
Okay, I have got to speak up because this is just ridiculous for intelligent people like you all to be judging a program you obviously are not informed about. We’re grown-ups right? Let’s be reasonable and rational. Please hear me through. I have to first say that I believe in safety first and I wear a helmet most of the time.
First things first, Caton Parelli (Pat Parelli’s son) did NOT get “kicked in the head” by a horse!! He was born with hydrocephaly and had a stroke very young. Please check your information before you go using it as evidence against something. If you want to check on this yourself, see Pat’s autobiography “Raise Your Hand if You Love Horses” for the full story about Caton (and you can always get it from the library). And for the record, Caton Parelli is now showing in cutting, riding bridleless and bareback and doing extremely well. All this when doctors said he would never walk or talk. Now if that isn’t determination on the part of a father and son, I don’t know what is. Pat Parelli is an amazing father and has helped Caton go above and beyond all odds.
Okay, I feel that you may have mistook the point of the email. If you go back and read the email from the Parelli’s you will see that when they refer to “behavior” they are referring to both the behavior of the horse and person, with the emphasis on the person. In your argument against the first paragraph you state several situations in which it was the mistake of the person where they got into an accident (i.e., not tightening the girth, dismounting incorrectly). The email states “developing the relationship with the horse, and the savvy level of the rider”. The Parelli’s entire first level focuses on safety and teaching the person savvy (savvy = know-how) in understanding and handling their horse and what to do in “uh oh!” moments. They teach “flight checks” so we know whether the horse is safe to get on and they teach how to be constantly cognizant of the horse’s state of mind the entire time we are with them (whether riding or playing on the ground). We practice, practice, and practice getting off in an emergency!
The comment you made that the Parelli’s completely ignore balance is said out of misunderstanding of the program. If I may, I would like to take this opportunity to educate you a little. Linda Parelli has come up with amazing and wonderful concepts of fluidity with horses: striving to physically become “one with the horse”. She goes through the biomechanics of the horse and the rider and what happens in the horse’s body when you are sitting a certain way. This is taught through simulations, explanations, and experiments. When I first started riding years ago I had a natural, balanced seat. Then, to my demise, I took jumping lessons (now I’m not bashing jumping, just the way I was taught) from an instructor that taught me to sit on my croch and bow in my lower back. This brought on a lot of back pain and I felt VERY insecure; like a top just barely balancing on the saddle (which is what happens with you sit even the tiniest bit forwards). Because of the pain this brought on, I thought I couldn’t ride anymore because that was the “proper” way to sit. Now that I’ve learned from Linda Parelli’s concepts and practiced them with simulations before getting on a horse and practiced them on the horse, my natural seat is back and I have security and balance again! And best of all, I do not have any pain when riding!! I can ride bareback and sit a trot easily because I am in tune with the horse’s movement.
Now I’m not saying you shouldn’t wear a helmet and neither did the Parelli’s. They have no qualms about people wearing helmets and they tell their students that it is up to them whether they want to wear a helmet or not. What Parelli is saying is that no one should use a helmet or any other safety device as an excuse for poor savvy and a poor relationship with a horse. Wouldn’t you agree?
Accidents happen. I know, I’ve been there. But I have not had a major accident since starting the Parelli program 5 years ago. And when I had a minor incident it was because I made a misjudgement and I take full responsibility for that. I then say “whoops” and go back and learn more, analyze the situation, and think how I can better prepare for a situation next time. And believe me, I have avoided many situations in which I could have been seriously hurt because I read the horse and adjusted the situation.
And as for the comment about having extraordinary numbers of accidents in the Parelli world, that is also said out of lack of information. I have a wealth of Parelli friends and I RARELY, if ever, hear of even a minor accident. And if I do hear of an accident it is because of some freak incidence where no one was at fault and usually the person was wearing a helmet anyhow.
If you don’t “like” the Parelli’s that is fine, but do not judge their principals and techniques if you don’t even know what they are. As for the comment on the incidence of someone “beating their horse over the head” I’m sure that was not a true Parelli person and I would have had to see the incidence first-hand. A stick, bit, rope, halter, or anything else (even a bucket!) can be used for ill in the wrong hands. Putting an orange stick in someone’s hands doesn’t make them a Parelli person and doesn’t make them beat their horse with it. Sadly, I have met people who “say” they “do Parelli” but in fact they do not. Lesson there: take everything with a grain of salt.
And as another educational opportunity, the carrot stick is not something magical, it is an extension of one’s arm…that’s all it is. If you’d like more information on how it is used, I’m more than happy to explain that further. Please, if you don’t know what something is used for, please don’t make fun of it. If I didn’t know what eye glasses or a bluetooth headset or an arm prosthesis were used for, would it be intelligent or polite to make fun of someone who used it?
In closing, if you don’t like the Parelli program, that is fine. We’re not shooving the program down your throats. It’s a resource here if you ever want it. Those of us who are in the program are very happily living our dreams safely and progressively. If you are too, that’s great! More power to ya! You do your thing and we’ll do ours, how about a truce?
Blessings and savvy on!
~”Bianca”
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